Decline in MP Quality

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Wintermute
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Post by Wintermute »

LOL. Poor DragonKing... ranking under two nonexistant players.

I guess that means that (no one) can beat him :wink:
"I just started playing this game a few days ago, and I already see some balance issues."

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Post by Flametrooper »

actually... new players who read this thread will learn some things that they didnt know.
Umm.. all I learned was about Maeglin Dubh playing his friend, even though I'm only half-new (I've been here a while, but don't get to play enough, so I still suck.) Which was not nessecary info. (but it was a bit funny.)

By the way I sometimes like games on 1k gold AoH 30% exp 5gpv :twisted: , only when I'm in the mood for ultimate destruction though. When I want strategy I just play regular games.

And, by the way, how come no one plays Wesbowl? It's kind of fun...if you want a change of pace from the usual battling.
Last edited by Flametrooper on June 8th, 2006, 12:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
hey.

Noy
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Post by Noy »

CuddleFish wrote:... is there something that can be done about this?

can we have ratings for players?
For Example:


/stat Cuddlefish

Disconnected - 6
Games Resigned - 2
Games Won - 5
Longest Turn - 5 minutes and 42 seconds
Shortest Turn - 3 seconds
# of games played - 10
etc...

This way we can kick the bad players immediately...
Thats probably the worst idea for cleaning up MP. It would in all probablility blow all the problems we have now (which are pretty minor) into the extreme. A ranking system would make people highly conscious about their records, which they'll likely try to find loopholes, disconnect games early, and cheat. That is in addition into a huge increase in compeditive players who's sole reason to play is to win games. One look at B-NET and you'll see how a ranking system ruins a community. Rather, keeping it this way ensures that the game is fun, but nobody takes it too seriously.

There are newbs everywhere you go, suck it up and live with it. I generally don't play with them so maybe you should look within and find solutions to the problem instead of coming to us and asking us to deal with, what is a minor problem at best. Play only with experts, or learn from some who are obviously better.

CuddleFish
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Post by CuddleFish »

Noy wrote:
CuddleFish wrote:... is there something that can be done about this?

can we have ratings for players?
For Example:


/stat Cuddlefish

Disconnected - 6
Games Resigned - 2
Games Won - 5
Longest Turn - 5 minutes and 42 seconds
Shortest Turn - 3 seconds
# of games played - 10
etc...

This way we can kick the bad players immediately...
Thats probably the worst idea for cleaning up MP. It would in all probablility blow all the problems we have now (which are pretty minor) into the extreme. A ranking system would make people highly conscious about their records, which they'll likely try to find loopholes, disconnect games early, and cheat. That is in addition into a huge increase in compeditive players who's sole reason to play is to win games. One look at B-NET and you'll see how a ranking system ruins a community. Rather, keeping it this way ensures that the game is fun, but nobody takes it too seriously.

There are newbs everywhere you go, suck it up and live with it. I generally don't play with them so maybe you should look within and find solutions to the problem instead of coming to us and asking us to deal with, what is a minor problem at best. Play only with experts, or learn from some who are obviously better.
*claps*
bravo!

but this is NOT a ranking system... this is a "background check"

for example.. you wouldn't want to play someone with these stats:

Games played - 10
Disconnections - 8
Wins - 2

this person could be a good player... but have bad internet connection
you still wouldn't want to play him
"Quantity has a quality of its own" Joesph Stalin

Noy
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Post by Noy »

Please don't be obtuse. It ticks me off. Any system that shows your wins/lossess ect, is a ranking system. People will want more wins, stop caring about the community and will act as I discussed. And to be perfectly frank, alot of players I know do not want to see such a system installed into Wesnoth for that exact reason.


Also... If you think playing against newbs is fun, then keep playing with them. Just don't come here and start complaining about the quality of players on wesnoth because you're playing in the worst catagory of players. I haven't played a game in over 4 months where someone has left prematurely, with the exception of one player who I don't play with anymore. Thats because I make it a point to play against players I know and trust.

CuddleFish
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Post by CuddleFish »

this is facism... mod opression...
"Quantity has a quality of its own" Joesph Stalin

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Dragonking
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Post by Dragonking »

Wintermute wrote:
LOL. Poor DragonKing... ranking under two nonexistant players.

I guess that means that (no one) can beat him :wink:
OMG And there is even two of me.... :shock:

(nice to know that this site still exist...)

CuddleFish wrote:this is facism... mod opression...
And now your post is opressed by Noy above it, and by me below it!
You are sandwiched!!1!1111!1
This is a block of text that can be added to posts you make. There is a 255 character limit

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JW
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Post by JW »

CuddleFish wrote:well... then i'll have to learn french, german, spanish, czech, japanese etc.
lol, okay you've made your point.

I see Noy's point and raise this idea:

if someday the server is able to keep track of players, it only shows a disconnect %. So it would show Dawgas: 98.5%, or JW: 78%, or Noy: 65%, or CuddleFish: 0%. (You rule CuddleFish!!!)

CuddleFish
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Post by CuddleFish »

someday.... *shoots himself with thunderstick*
"Quantity has a quality of its own" Joesph Stalin

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Post by Flametrooper »

Yay.

Now opstay eedingfay the rollstay.
hey.

dms
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Re: Decline in MP Quality

Post by dms »

JW wrote:When they just leave and don't resign or say they are leaving that's annoying.
Perhaps when someone leaves, the game could prompt them to send a goodbye message...

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Post by Dragon Master »

I believe JW meant when someone leaves in the middle of a game and doesn't actually disconnect, since you do get a notice that the player disconnected. This gets SO annoying because you sit there for 4-7 minutes before asking "Hello?". Once they don't respond for a while a how-dissapointed-I-am-with-them-notice follows before I sign off. I think they either leave for long periods of time or think that if they don't do anything, their opponent will leave which qualifies as a win for them.
BUT if that is what JW meant I also throw my rant out there.

OlBudt
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Not ranking, but reliability

Post by OlBudt »

Noy: "Thats probably the worst idea for cleaning up MP. It would in all probablility blow all the problems we have now (which are pretty minor) into the extreme. A ranking system would make people highly conscious about their records, which they'll likely try to find loopholes, disconnect games early, and cheat. That is in addition into a huge increase in compeditive players who's sole reason to play is to win games. One look at B-NET and you'll see how a ranking system ruins a community. Rather, keeping it this way ensures that the game is fun, but nobody takes it too seriously."

This is an interesting point, and I would hate such a thing to happen.

However, I actually agree with cuttelfish. I am very irritated by people leaving the game and saying 'looser' and 'f#ck you'. And what I want, and I think cuttlefish also, is not a system for ranking how good players are, but how reliable they are. So I am not interested in how many games a person won or lost or damage statistics or whatever.
The idea is this: Play a game, and suddenly you come acros a person who is leaving without reason, or cursing or other unsocial behavior. Then, in the lobby it would be very nice to be able 'right click' on his name, and flag him as being a quiter or cursing [censored].
Normally everybody would be 'cool', but you have the option to give a person flags. (possibility to give one flag for every person, ofcourse)

Now, when a game starts, you can look at the statistics of a person by right clicking again, and checking :
How many flags of cursing did he get.
How many flags for quiting did he get.
And, very importantly,
How many flags did this person set for others.

And then just kick him if the stats suck too much. Or make it impossible for somebody to join a game, by setting a maximum number of flags.
I would be very willing to register online to make implementation of such a system (based on IP?) be made possible.

> There are newbs everywhere you go, suck it up and live with it.
I dont mind. I usually start to behave like a father when they say they are new. This is not the problem.

> Play only with experts, or learn from some who are obviously better.
Everybody is anonymous, that is the problem. I do not play all the time, I do not know the names. I like to play with good players, but am happy already when I am playing somebody who does not quit or is calling me a "motherfucker" or whatever. I play this game for enjoying, not that [censored]. When you are sitting in a room playing a game in front of other people, do you shout at the other? Do you quit halfway? No. And we should facilitate that situation online. First step towards that making somebody not anonymous anymore.


And Noy, you said:
"Also... If you think playing against newbs is fun, then keep playing with them. Just don't come here and start complaining about the quality of players on wesnoth because you're playing in the worst catagory of players. I haven't played a game in over 4 months where someone has left prematurely, with the exception of one player who I don't play with anymore. Thats because I make it a point to play against players I know and trust."
This is not the point. You make it very clear that you dont have this problem, because you are not dealing with anonymous players. I would love to know who they are, but I dont. And the more people we have playing online, the bigger this problem will become.

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JW
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Post by JW »

Adding flags to players seems like a much better way of doing what you'd want to do. It would be like adding player notes in online poker programs.

Noy
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Post by Noy »

Next time please use quotes.
This is not the point. You make it very clear that you dont have this problem, because you are not dealing with anonymous players. I would love to know who they are, but I dont. And the more people we have playing online, the bigger this problem will become.
See you don't get it. What you are proposing is completely unfeasible, and shows a lack of understanding of the problems associated with it.

First. Such a system is unfeasable. What is a disconnect? I don't know if you noticed, but this is an open source game, one where disconnects, crashes, ect happen quite frequently. Everybody has them, even me, and I'm on OSX. So disconnects don't really tell much. Some people crash once a game, return and play out their turn. I just watched a game where ond goblin, a very good player disconnected in a 4p and came back. Does that mean he was cheating? Or what about the person who leaves but has someone else take his place because he asked before hand? Or what about games that are saved to be continued later? Or how about two players that use the same IP, like Tux and Sargy, who are good players? It would be insanely hard to program a system for that. And it probably in the end wouldn't be that revealing of who was a nice player at all if it just had disconnects.


Secondly, you are ignoring my first point. While you want a system that just ranks players according to their "niceness" would inherently be used for competition purposes. Having wins or rankings would be something that people will feed off of. If you think swearing and trashtalking is bad now, just wait till you get players with 100+ wins talking down to new players, with no interest in the game save to get more and more wins. Thats alot bigger problem then the one you are describing.

In conclusion what you want is practically impossible. Even a limited system would be a massive undertaking. You'd also have to get a person to code it, and integrate it, and nobody is willing to do that right now. You're willing to register, but are you also willing to program and maintain a database of players? Not many people are.


What I think you need to realize is that game's design philosophy is not aimed at new players. its aimed at skilled players and the learning curve in MP is steep. The balancing system is the best example of that. Its not designed for a new player to easily grasp how to use the units, but for skilled players to take advantage of it to have more complex games. Its not designed for Hero wars. Its designed for 1v1s, 2v2s at 100~200GPV ect.

Thats the sad truth of it, and if you can't figure out who are the good players, or won't invest the time, I can't help you there, and we shouldn't program for it as well. The better players all know who each other are, and play with each other constantly. Those get the most fun out of the game, and they are the people this game should cater to, rather than the lowest common denomimator.

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