Upgrade the Footpad (???)

[Jew unit]

how about giving them one more movment and leaving everything else alone?

[Ranger M]

how about giving them one more movment and leaving everything else alone?

The problem is that it dies too easily, not that it cannot get villages, or move away fast enough, it needs more health, or to do more damage (my preference, apart from them getting skirmisher or ambush, because they would be more useful anyway with that)

[scott]

Note that the outlaws are philosophically supposed to be weaker than their other-factional opponents. They have no official L3 units because there's no way a L3 outlaw would be a combat match for the elite Royal Guard (f.ex.). So, the L1 footpad isn't supposed to be comparable to the L1 Elvish Fighter and L1 Spearman for the same gold. This isn't necessarily the best thing for multiplayer balancing but that's part of the history. Pound-for-pound (or gold-for-gold, MP-for-MP, etc.) it is acceptable for the footpad to remain inferior from a game design perspective (but I admit maybe not from an MP faction design perspective).

The L3 outlaw pack bends the rules somewhat, making the units freakishly strong just so they can compete with other factions' L3 units. That's why it's unofficial.

[Ranger M]

Note that the outlaws are philosophically supposed to be weaker than their other-factional opponents. They have no official L3 units because there's no way a L3 outlaw would be a combat match for the elite Royal Guard (f.ex.). So, the L1 footpad isn't supposed to be comparable to the L1 Elvish Fighter and L1 Spearman for the same gold. This isn't necessarily the best thing for multiplayer balancing but that's part of the history. Pound-for-pound (or gold-for-gold, MP-for-MP, etc.) it is acceptable for the footpad to remain inferior from a game design perspective (but I admit maybe not from an MP faction design perspective).

The L3 outlaw pack bends the rules somewhat, making the units freakishly strong just so they can compete with other factions' L3 units. That's why it is unofficial.

Why couldn't a L3 outlaw compare to a royal guard? they could easily find armour from killing someone/stealing it, and their slings may not do as much damage as a bow (which a royal guard doesn't have anyway), but they maces probably could (Iron maulers use maces, these would probably do a bit less damage, but hit more, because of the size of the maces). Lack of training would simply be made up for by fighting allot).

I agree that they should be harder to make as strong (it's not every day that you find good armour, or a decent mace) but that would simply be done through XP requirements, is a realism thing, not a gameplay thing.

[scott]

Note that the outlaws are philosophically supposed to be weaker than their other-factional opponents. They have no official L3 units because there's no way a L3 outlaw would be a combat match for the elite Royal Guard (f.ex.). So, the L1 footpad isn't supposed to be comparable to the L1 Elvish Fighter and L1 Spearman for the same gold. This isn't necessarily the best thing for multiplayer balancing but that's part of the history. Pound-for-pound (or gold-for-gold, MP-for-MP, etc.) it is acceptable for the footpad to remain inferior from a game design perspective (but I admit maybe not from an MP faction design perspective).

The L3 outlaw pack bends the rules somewhat, making the units freakishly strong just so they can compete with other factions' L3 units. That's why it is unofficial.

Why couldn't a L3 outlaw compare to a royal guard? they could easily find armour from killing someone/stealing it, and their slings may not do as much damage as a bow (which a royal guard doesn't have anyway), but they maces probably could (Iron maulers use maces, these would probably do a bit less damage, but hit more, because of the size of the maces). Lack of training would simply be made up for by fighting allot).

I agree that they should be harder to make as strong (it is not every day that you find good armour, or a decent mace) but that would simply be done through XP requirements, is a realism thing, not a gameplay thing.

Imagine your dad vs. a Navy SEAL (or SAS for you Brits, right?). They're not in the same league (I'm assuming ). Based on the premise that L3 signifies Olympian-quality strength and skill for fighters, and outlaws are just normal guys with clubs and stuff, there [used to be] a BFW norm that normal outlaws would never attain that standard, although it is surely theoretically possible for an outlaw to be that good. The L3 outlaw pack was made out of my gameplay necessity, but it has to remain an exception as long as the norm is upheld.

[Ranger M]

Imagine your dad vs. a Navy SEAL (or SAS for you Brits, right?). They're not in the same league (I'm assuming ). Based on the premise that L3 signifies Olympian-quality strength and skill for fighters, and outlaws are just normal guys with clubs and stuff, there [used to be] a BFW norm that normal outlaws would never attain that standard, although it is surely theoretically possible for an outlaw to be that good. The L3 outlaw pack was made out of my gameplay necessity, but it has to remain an exception as long as the norm is upheld.

Well, I could imagine my dad vs a SAS guy, and the more time that my dad spends on battelfields, using his sling, and hitting people with clubs, the more I can imageine him winning.

Thing is that to be a L3 unit, because the L3 outlaw has a ranged attack too, you just give him a better melee than an elf shapshooter (concieveable), but worse ranged (which is better than the nothing that the royal guard has) then he'll still be beaten in combat by the royal guard. but because he also has his sling, he is as powerful as a L3 unit, but is 'weaker' than the royal guard in the gameplay sense (and I could imagine my dad with a sling (once he knows how to use it) vs an unarmed SAS guy, winning by throwing a big enough stone at the right place, hard enough, which he probably could after years of practice.)

[scott]

Imagine your dad vs. a Navy SEAL (or SAS for you Brits, right?). They're not in the same league (I'm assuming ). Based on the premise that L3 signifies Olympian-quality strength and skill for fighters, and outlaws are just normal guys with clubs and stuff, there [used to be] a BFW norm that normal outlaws would never attain that standard, although it is surely theoretically possible for an outlaw to be that good. The L3 outlaw pack was made out of my gameplay necessity, but it has to remain an exception as long as the norm is upheld.

Well, I could imagine my dad vs a SAS guy, and the more time that my dad spends on battelfields, using his sling, and hitting people with clubs, the more I can imageine him winning.

Thing is that to be a L3 unit, because the L3 outlaw has a ranged attack too, you just give him a better melee than an elf shapshooter (concieveable), but worse ranged (which is better than the nothing that the royal guard has) then he'll still be beaten in combat by the royal guard. but because he also has his sling, he is as powerful as a L3 unit, but is 'weaker' than the royal guard in the gameplay sense (and I could imagine my dad with a sling (once he knows how to use it) vs an unarmed SAS guy, winning by throwing a big enough stone at the right place, hard enough, which he probably could after years of practice.)

I don't really get your point. A normal person vs. a commando isn't an even matchup, and it never will be. A normal person can get a lucky blow or somehow manage to best the commando, just like a L2 unit can defeat a L3 unit with some help or some luck.

[Jew unit]

ok but a man who has spent his whole life fitting to survive (a level three outlaw) could probalby take on a seal. i mean with soooooo much experance its hard to imagine that they wouldnt be on near = footing (expect perhaps for what weapons they use)

[Ranger M]

I don't really get your point. A normal person vs. a commando isn't an even matchup, and it never will be. A normal person can get a lucky blow or somehow manage to best the commando, just like a L2 unit can defeat a L3 unit with some help or some luck.

See, Jew unit's post for a short explaination of what I was trying to say.

basically, normal guy, after years of being an outlaw, gets good enough with sling to hit the commando guy before unarmed commando guy reaches him, killing commando guy. What I am trying to say is that a outlaw could beat a trained person, because the outlaw can hit from a distance (relating directly to royal guard situation)

translate to wesnoth.

L3 outlaw, despite being experienced with a mace, could never take on a royal guard head on, therefore is weaker and fufills that requirement, but it makes up for this in it's ranged attack, speed and elusive foot, so it's powerful enough to be considered L3, and is definately still a scout.


This is why I don't get why not having a L3 outlaw is neccissary, and I see no reason for there not being a L3 outlaw in mainline (something that I have always thought)

[Becephalus]

when I say deleted I meant removed from the knalgans MP unit list.

[Ranger M]

when I say deleted I meant removed from the knalgans MP unit list.

there are a couple of people who want them to be removed from the knalgans (me included) and made into their own faction, this has already been done in Noyga's extended era, but isn't mainline.

[Becephalus]

Well as far as I know thieves and poachers are staying. But footpads may get the axe soon (at least that was what i was told last time I had a serious discussion with someone important about footpad worthlessness).

[commander keen]

Why not just give them the ability to attack someone and then run away in the same turn?
LiKe a juiced up version of the skirmisher ability which instead of ignoring ZOC, they hit & run. It could only work against their level or lower, say, or they could have they plague ability, as in, who they kill gets recruited into the outlaw armies.

Ok, that 2nd idea was rubbish, but what about the first?
After all, it corresponds to their hit & run nature.

[Jetrel]

The point behind what scott's saying is this - the rank-and-file soldiers have special, esoteric training that allows them to do what intuition alone will not.

Consider Kung Fu. Let's say it's 1959, and a young, 19ish Bruce Lee walks into a club, and gets in a fight with one of the older (say, 29yr old) bouncers. That bouncer is a good, experienced brawler. He's taken a lot of hits over the years, and dealt out his fair share.

He has a lot more fighting experience than Mr. Lee. But he gets his ass kicked, because his fighting style (improvised, self-taught) is inferior to the other guy's (Kung Fu).


Sure, he might win, if he was a genius, and came up with his own, superior way of fighting at the drop of a hat. But there's a science to fighting - there's hard, empirical knowledge driving most military martial arts - knowledge that often costs life and limb to gain. There is lore, of pitfalls to avoid, weaknesses to avoid, and lots of other special tricks.

Thugs are not warriors, and violent crimes are not the bread and butter of their existence - the same is true of pirates - they may seek out violent encounters in times of need or opportunity, but half the time they front as merchants, or engage in non-violent crimes like burglary. If you're a criminal, and you have a choice of getting the same loot while not risking your life, you'll take it - that kind of pragmatism is often what invites criminals to commit crimes in the first place (hey - I can get the same money by taking a short risk instead of long labor.).

Second, most criminals (indeed most human beings) lack discipline. Soldiers only have it because they get it beaten into them, but only the leaders of criminal bands tend to have natural discipline without someone coercing them into it - and they can only discipline their men so strongly. Could you imagine a pirate captain making his 'mates do pushups? I think not. He'd have mutiny on his hands, followed by a long trip off a short plank.

Essentially, thugs don't practice fighting. They just do it when they have to.



The idea is that only real soldiers have the discipline, and furthermore, the esoteric training necessary to get really good. Thugs can get decent, but they'll almost never be amazing. And yes, medieval european schools of swordsmanship, fencing, archery, and everything else were advanced martial arts in their own right - let's not get into a comparison with eastern styles - the point is that ANY martial art is superior to no martial art. You can get really good at just what your instincts tell you to do, but someone really good with a refined, educated style will mop you.

[Ranger M]

The idea is that only real soldiers have the discipline, and furthermore, the esoteric training necessary to get really good. Thugs can get decent, but they'll almost never be amazing. And yes, medieval european schools of swordsmanship, fencing, archery, and everything else were advanced martial arts in their own right - let's not get into a comparison with eastern styles - the point is that ANY martial art is superior to no martial art. You can get really good at just what your instincts tell you to do, but someone really good with a refined, educated style will mop you.

I know, which is why i said this:

L3 outlaw, despite being experienced with a mace, could never take on a royal guard head on, therefore is weaker and fufills that requirement, but it makes up for this in it is ranged attack, speed and elusive foot, so it is powerful enough to be considered L3, and is definately still a scout.

to use you terminology, yes Lee (royal guard) could wipp the bouncer's (outlaw's) ass in melee, but if the bouncer had a gun and saw Lee coming he could easily shoot him.

Now a sling isn't as effective as a gun, and in wesnoth the royal guard would reach the L3 outlaw in melee 40% of the time (fugitive has more MP), and so would probably still beat him because there would be melee combat, and of HP differences too, but the L3 outlaw would be a scout, could a outrider beat a royal guard in melee? (although he would probably have a better ranged)



So yes, the outlaw would never be as strong/damageing in melee, but he would probably be more versitile (which would fit the character too, swordsmen do what they are trained to do, outlaws improvise)