Upgrade the Footpad (???)

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JW
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Post by JW » May 18th, 2006, 10:25 am

Just decrease the price to 13 and up his hp by 2 already.

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Zhukov
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Post by Zhukov » May 19th, 2006, 10:12 am

Some thoughts:

I would say experience generally trumps training. So some hardened geurilla fighter who has been in action on-and-off for ten years and has learnt the ropes first hand could well be more valuable then a young soldier fresh out of the training camp who hasn't yet had the chance to 'apply' his training and pick up the grisly tricks of the trade.
In Wesnoth terms, this relates to the fact that a lvl2 Bandit (advancemant of Thug) prettymuch always beat a Spearman.

However a Royal Guard is a completely different matter. He is not only trained, but has proven himself on the field and survived enough nasty encounters to get accepted into an elite group. He may well have recieved even more specialised training along the way.
The Bandit however, has only his experience. That alone is not sufficient to raise him to a stage where he can take down a Royal Guard.

On it's own, experience can only get you so far, and the same goes for training. A combination of both yields far superior results. Occasionally there might be a natural fighter who can excel with little or no formal instruction, but that is the exception rather then the rule.

This thread almost warrants a split, but it makes for an interesting dicussion.

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Ranger M
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Post by Ranger M » May 19th, 2006, 11:58 am

Zhukov wrote:Some thoughts:

I would say experience generally trumps training. So some hardened geurilla fighter who has been in action on-and-off for ten years and has learnt the ropes first hand could well be more valuable then a young soldier fresh out of the training camp who hasn't yet had the chance to 'apply' his training and pick up the grisly tricks of the trade.
In Wesnoth terms, this relates to the fact that a lvl2 Bandit (advancemant of Thug) prettymuch always beat a Spearman.

However a Royal Guard is a completely different matter. He is not only trained, but has proven himself on the field and survived enough nasty encounters to get accepted into an elite group. He may well have recieved even more specialised training along the way.
The Bandit however, has only his experience. That alone is not sufficient to raise him to a stage where he can take down a Royal Guard.

On it is own, experience can only get you so far, and the same goes for training. A combination of both yields far superior results. Occasionally there might be a natural fighter who can excel with little or no formal instruction, but that is the exception rather then the rule.

This thread almost warrants a split, but it makes for an interesting dicussion.
and a level 3 outlaw (not bandit, but footpad line, you seem confused about that) would be worse at melee (the area that the royal guard is trained in) and have worse HP, but would be faster and have a ranged, which would fufill this. Why does nobody get this? :evil:

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Jetrel
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Post by Jetrel » May 19th, 2006, 4:52 pm

Ranger M wrote:and a level 3 outlaw (not bandit, but footpad line, you seem confused about that) would be worse at melee (the area that the royal guard is trained in) and have worse HP, but would be faster and have a ranged, which would fufill this. Why does nobody get this? :evil:
We do. We agree that there's a hypothetical, parallel unit that would get a level-3 in clubbing and slinging because it has training. The footpad does not, however, and there's a level of skill at his own game that the footpad can't reach because of that.

A unit doing the exact same thing as the footpad would be able to reach level-3 if it had formal, institutionalized training. The footpad, however, doesn't. Such military units did exist in history (the minoans, IIRC, fielded slingmen as regulars who were just as deadly as any hoplite - because they were trained.

But they don't exist in wesnoth. Not yet, at least.

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Ranger M
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Post by Ranger M » May 19th, 2006, 6:13 pm

Jetryl wrote:We do. We agree that there's a hypothetical, parallel unit that would get a level-3 in clubbing and slinging because it has training. The footpad does not, however, and there's a level of skill at his own game that the footpad can't reach because of that.

A unit doing the exact same thing as the footpad would be able to reach level-3 if it had formal, institutionalized training. The footpad, however, doesn't. Such military units did exist in history (the minoans, IIRC, fielded slingmen as regulars who were just as deadly as any hoplite - because they were trained.

But they don't exist in wesnoth. Not yet, at least.
Ah, now I see (I hadn't thought of that)


BTW, why couldn't bandits get trained (out of curiosity), I mean the dwarves (other side of knalgan allience) do, and there is nothing to stop a bunch of them getting trained by ex army guys.

Meh, I suppose that that wouldn't be common enough anyway.

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Cuyo Quiz
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Post by Cuyo Quiz » May 20th, 2006, 1:59 am

That would totally make for good diplomacy:

"Your settlements are training bandits that threaten our people!"
"We give them a fair job and ensure our survival with those forces, we supply them and they do not threaten you!"

Yeah...
But they don't exist in wesnoth. Not yet, at least.
The Dardans are there, in theory... gawds how bad it feels to say that.
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DJ1337
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Post by DJ1337 » June 6th, 2006, 4:33 pm

I'd say that a guerrila soldier can get pretty elite without formal training. For example, consider the Spanish vs. Napoleon or various partisans vs WW II Germans.

YbeRn00b
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Post by YbeRn00b » June 6th, 2006, 4:58 pm

Alternative 1:
Give them ~5hp and +1 melee attack power.

Alternative 2:
Make them level 0 and reduce xp/cost.

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Post by Free » June 7th, 2006, 12:50 am

YbeRn00b wrote:Alternative 1:
Give them ~5hp and +1 melee attack power.

Alternative 2:
Make them level 0 and reduce xp/cost.
Alt 2 would make Footpads the best level 0 units by far then!

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JW
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Post by JW » June 9th, 2006, 5:42 pm

changelog 1.1.5 wrote: * balancing changes:
* Increased HP of the Footpad from 28 to 30
* Increased melee and ranged damage of the Footpad from 4-2 to 5-2
* Increased HP of the Outlaw from 40 to 42
* Increased melee damage of the Outlaw from 7-2 to 8-2
:twisted: Success! :twisted:

Noy
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Post by Noy » June 9th, 2006, 6:00 pm

took you long enough to notice.

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JW
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Post by JW » June 9th, 2006, 6:01 pm

Noy wrote:took you long enough to notice.
I don't keep up with SVN. I'm too busy creating 87 new factions.

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Post by Noy » June 9th, 2006, 6:21 pm

why don't you cry about it a little more? I've discovered you have a real talent at it.

:P

(oh, for anybody who doesn't know, thats a joke between me, JW and the small olof crew. I'm going back on topic now)

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Ranger M
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Post by Ranger M » June 9th, 2006, 6:44 pm

JW wrote:
changelog 1.1.5 wrote: * balancing changes:
* Increased HP of the Footpad from 28 to 30
* Increased melee and ranged damage of the Footpad from 4-2 to 5-2
* Increased HP of the Outlaw from 40 to 42
* Increased melee damage of the Outlaw from 7-2 to 8-2
:twisted: Success! :twisted:
*goes to change IoA accordingly*

I should really check the changelog more often, otherwise the IoA versions of the units will cause people confusion.

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JW
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Post by JW » June 9th, 2006, 7:03 pm

Noy wrote:why don't you cry about it a little more? I've discovered you have a real talent at it.

:P

(oh, for anybody who doesn't know, thats a joke between me, JW and the small olof crew. I'm going back on topic now)
I learn from the best, Noy. :P

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