Voting for new draug ability.

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Would you like to see the Draug have the 'dread' ability, receiving half damage when on the offensive?

Yes, I think it's unique, not overpowering, and interesting
19
61%
No, I'd rather not see him get any special ability.
10
32%
Maybe but I'd change... (explain alternative idea in post)
2
6%
 
Total votes: 31

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Sapient
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Post by Sapient »

Sure, because an Undead player usually gets a Draug in the average MP game. :roll:
Age of Heroes leader Draug may be a popular choice if this is implemented. Since the leader is usually well-guarded anyways, it could cut down on his total damage recieved by 1/4 to 1/2.
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Post by SmokemJags »

Age of Heroes leader Draug may be a popular choice if this is implemented. Since the leader is usually well-guarded anyways, it could cut down on his total damage recieved by 1/4 to 1/2.
I've only played multiplayer vs. the AI but it seems to me the leader doesn't see much action for several reasons.
The experience would be better used on lower level units.
He's usually back at the keep recruiting new troops, pretty far from the front lines, depending on the map.

If you've got a decent army and not a lot of money you might use him offensively rather than sit at a keep...
How often does anyone really put their leader in the line of fire though?

To really use this draug ability to spearhead attacks, you're putting your leader directly in the line of fire, possibly leaving him extremely exposed should your luck fall through.
If you lose your leader... gg you.

To use your leader draug so offensively, you're playing a real 'do or die' strategy. If the situation is that desperate, I really don't see dread making that much of a difference. It's just one unit and it only works when he's attacking. The 6 enemies who surround him and attack him in their turn don't suffer from this half damage, they just have to deal with his normal resistances.

And if you're on the defensive... again dread only works when the draug is attacking. If he's sitting at home in his keep and he's being attacked, there is no damage reduction.
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Post by Tippsey »

To Elvish. Hmm I dunno the Lancer is only one example, there trully aren't those many lv 2 side units. The lancer though even is a more specialized unit then a deathblade. The only way the deathblade can be considered standing out is that it has no real specilization. As to where the shock trooper came from, you did bring them up saying one draug couldn't kill 2 shock troopers. Course then in reality a draug shouldn't be massacring a shock trooper, due to reses, but with this dread ability it may come to this or at the very least shove the fight in the draug's advantage. As for when a draug would come into play ibn mp, it wouldn't really. Lv 3 units don't get balanced often because they only matter in campaigns, so that's what one needs to look at first for such a high level unit.
May the drakes bloody kill you all.

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Post by SmokemJags »

Maybe we should stop talking about level 2 units altogether and compare the Draug to the Iron Mauler.
but with this dread ability it may come to this or at the very least shove the fight in the draug's advantage
On second thought, maybe not. You're talking about a Draug having trouble against a level two melee unit. Again... how does that not support the need for a more powerful draug if he's a level 3 having problems with standing toe to toe with a level 2?
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Post by Tippsey »

Hmm easy look at the spectre. Through a level 2 red mage at it and it dies quite quick. Every unit should lose to it's weakness without a giant amount of trouble. Shock troopers it's anything doing cold or fire. Skellies, fire, impact, or holy. An ability should not make it so instead of a sort of rock paper scissors balance we have the one unit that can handle almost all.
May the drakes bloody kill you all.

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Post by Sapient »

SmokemJags wrote: I've only played multiplayer vs. the AI but...
This explains why your post was filled with inaccuracies then. I stand by my earlier statement.
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Post by SmokemJags »

Age of Heroes leader Draug may be a popular choice if this is implemented.
Wow and that's a great statement to stand by... is that even a problem/vote against the draug having this ability?

It's perfectly accurate when taking on the computer AI, thank you very much, and while playing any campaign, that's pretty much the only time the ever time you ever take on the AI.

I never pretended to judge how it would work out in multiplayer, but all this crying about how overpowered it is... rather ridiculous, considering it only works when he's on the offensive which is only once during the controlling players turn, and doesn't even activate when he's on the defensive, which is usually happens a LOT more than when he is on the attack.
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Post by Sapient »

SmokemJags wrote:
Age of Heroes leader Draug may be a popular choice if this is implemented.
Wow and that's a great statement to stand by... is that even a problem/vote against the draug having this ability?
No, in fact I voted for the draug to have this ability. I just wanted to point out the side-effects.
SmokemJags wrote:...it only works when he's on the offensive which is only once during the controlling players turn, and doesn't even activate when he's on the defensive, which is usually happens a LOT more than when he is on the attack.
Having more hitpoints after an attack obviously helps your defense. And if you really want to baby him, you can let two minions attack the enemy unit then use your leader to finish it off, another minion steps into the death spot, and other minions cover your flanks if needed. Using this method will reduce the Draug's damage taken by over 1/2, effectively meaning you get to use him twice as much (assuming enough enemies are in range).

However, since the Draug can take a beating with or without this ability, you won't even need to baby him unless fire and/or holy enemies are in range. (That way you get to finish enemies off with your minions, and use some of the flankers for other things instead). So, realistically, it would only decrease his damage taken by 1/4 to 1/2.

Still, that's pretty significant. Something to consider.
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Post by Big Bad Joe »

I am voting for. I am not udead player, but I remember from DH the disappointment when my lvl. 3 big guy " the maniacal skeleton butcher" gets hammered by two lvl. 1 heavy infantries.. He si lvl. 3 and he looks like the really tough guy, well in the setting I remember him from, he was not. What is the big problem with making lvl. 3 skellie more powerfull? Revenant is much worse choice for levelling in mulriplayer IMHO, so what is the reason to deny the player to get payback in the form of really usefull lvl. 3??

I am on the same side of the battling front with EP??? Something seems wrong :lol:.
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Post by Neoriceisgood »

I am on the same side of the battling front with EP??? Something seems wrong .
I feel a disturbance in the force. . .
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Post by SmokemJags »

And if you really want to baby him, you can let two minions attack the enemy unit then use your leader to finish it off, another minion steps into the death spot, and other minions cover your flanks if needed.
That's a huge amount of babying, keeping three units just to cover the draug after he gets a kill... and again, it's the Draug getting the experience, which is kind of a waste, at least until better AMLAs come out.
That almost runs parallel to this...
Well, if you have to send up to two Draugs and an Adept to get rid of a mere level 2 shock trooper, then something's pretty screwed up with your strategy.
That is a huge amount of overkill, be it to take down a shock trooper with draugs or to excessively shield a draug after he's gotten a kill.

I've never played this game multiplayer, but I've played plenty of other strategy games in multiplayer. A pretty common theme is that you and your enemy are pretty equally matched in terms of forces at your disposal. If you're using that many resources just to protect your 'uber tank'... you're either really winning and can afford to do that or things probably aren't going so well.

Actually, about this 'tank' label. A 'tank' is someone or something who takes damage. They soak it up like a sponge... not exactly a great tank when he needs so much protecting, heh.

Sorry if my last post sounded a little beligerant, I was drunk. I threw up though, so I'm feeling much better now. :)

I feel a disturbance in the force. . .
That would be the growing possibility that something from the 'ideas' section of this forum might actually make it into the game. :wink:
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Post by Sapient »

SmokemJags wrote: That's a huge amount of babying, keeping three units just to cover the draug after he gets a kill...
No, the strategy works well and is common practice to control possible damage to your leader. The helper units are getting their attacks in, contributing to a kill... it's hardly useless, since that's what they're supposed to be doing. Also, positioning appropriate flankers in the right positions can aid your cause, since anyone who attacks them may be stuck on lesser terrain for potential counterattcks and reprisals.

and again, it's the Draug getting the experience, which is kind of a waste, at least until better AMLAs come out.
No, it is a common strategy to use a powerful leader unit to sway the battle in your favor at a critical moment, or break through a well-fortified protrusion, or to eliminate potential troublemakers whenever the opportunity presents itself. Furthermore, you are only using my first example, which I already discredited.
I've never played this game multiplayer, but I've played plenty of other strategy games in multiplayer. A pretty common theme is that you and your enemy are pretty equally matched in terms of forces at your disposal. If you're using that many resources just to protect your 'uber tank'... you're either really winning and can afford to do that or things probably aren't going so well.
Wrong again. The major strength of the undead is their cheap and plentiful recruits.

I've never played this game multiplayer...
... this is the multiplayer development forum, you know ...
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Let's do some simple math to show the ability's effectiveness in a common situation. Suppose the great Draug attacks a typical level 1 or 2 melee unit with a Blade melee attack.

Level 1: ~20 damage * .6 = 12 / 2 = 6. total damage prevented: 6.
Level 2: ~30 damage * .6 = 18 / 2 = 9. total damage prevented: 9.

Preventing 9 damage per turn isn't that extraordinary an ability, especially if that's only when you're actually attacking same-range enemies anyway.
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Post by SmokemJags »

This just gets better and better. Now I'm really starting to confuse the people who support this and their reasoning with those that don't.
Wrong again. The major strength of the undead is their cheap and plentiful recruits.
As it is, I really don't see the undead as having 'cheap' recruits (plentiful... I don't ever recall running into a problem with any faction where the recruit pool was anything less than plentiful) unless we're talking WCs. Skeletons cost pretty much the same as every other rank 1 unit in every other faction.
Do I really have to start pulling stats?
... this is the multiplayer development forum, you know ...
all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing,
It's a strategy game. There are hundreds of others like it. This one has its nice few unique touches, but it is a turn based strategy game.
If there ever comes a time when the discussion moves away from theorycraft (theorynoth) and nitpicking tactics, I'll be glad to share more input.
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Post by Noy »

SmokemJags wrote:
... this is the multiplayer development forum, you know ...
all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing,
It's a strategy game. There are hundreds of others like it. This one has its nice few unique touches, but it is a turn based strategy game.
If there ever comes a time when the discussion moves away from theorycraft (theorynoth) and nitpicking tactics, I'll be glad to share more input.
Well you haven't played MP though, so how would you know? I've played plenty of other turn based games too, and when I first played MP I got my *** handed to me (even after playing SP for quite some time too). All default era balancing is done on the basis of the Multiplayer considerations. Sapient actually put forward some tatical ideas, and you brushed them out of hand. And to be honest, many of your "ideas" aren't very new or even inventive.

Secondly, I personally don't take much stock in online polls, or even forum discussion. Alot of noise + little productive discussion.

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