Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

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ArthurMitchell
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by ArthurMitchell »

Cackfiend wrote: February 20th, 2021, 7:14 pm Giving them a lesser damage ranged attack with Marksman is an interesting idea, but nothing is 100% in wesnoth
The issue with a lesser damage marksman is that it makes 18-1 obsolete vs high defense, and a no-brainer vs low defense. Let me explain: (1) If you're attacking a unit on 30/40% would you use your weak marksman, or go for the big 18-1 every time? (2) The reverse applies for engaging a unit on 60/70%, marksman is the clear choice almost every time ... unless you're going for a low-roll CTK with 18-1, in which case why even have a marksman?

The guaranteed 14-1 hit I suggest would adjust its damage according to defense %, so in the end you have a choice EVERY time: A) shoot the big 18-1 and risk it, or B) take your much smaller guaranteed hit. Neither option being clearly superior. Versatility and player choice at its finest.

Of course, if you want to dismiss a uniquely good idea with "nothing is 100%", that's fine. Just keep the Thunderer 18-1 and don't make him more versatile. He's balanced as is.
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Krogen
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by Krogen »

An attack with 100% chance to hit is very dangerous and gives full reliability to a unit in finishing off low hp enemies. Thunderer is a high risk high reward unit in the first place, something like this would make it super versatile and super popular. My guess is that this would make the Knalgans overpowered, as they already have the best defensive potential, and something like this would make them outshine other factions on the offense aswell. Combine this with ulfserkers, Knalgans would be masters at breaking high defense formations, something they struggle with right now (and one could argue that they are supposed to). Elves would suffer from this greatly for example.
For example if there is an elvish fighter defending in a village, and it can be attacked from 3 hexes (a common scenario), two thunderers with two guaranteed shots could still deal 12 damage to it, and then it's open for an ulf attack. Also i don't see any mention of resistances, but i assume it's still pierce, so elusivefoot would suffer from this so much, like orcish assassins and fencers for example, as those often end up surviving with just a little hp.
Sometimes the survival of a low hp unit is crucial to the outcome, so i'm almost sure a 100% chance attack would be broken on any unit, even if it was very weak, like 4-1.
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Yomar
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by Yomar »

I'm following this tournament, and like in def. era Skel. Archers look OP against Loys, (Just watch the last Ladder game), Idk if the Cav. nerf made it worse, as stated by Cremember.
Would lowering the HI's cost or increasing his pierce resistance, help to balance things out a bit ?
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Krogen
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by Krogen »

Don't want to go into details, but that problem will be addressed for sure in the future.
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Yomar
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by Yomar »

In regard to the Thunderer and in general for the 100% question, I agree with Krogen.

In these past days I observed like, 3 games and in 2 Knagla won because they broke Rebels defense thanx to a couple of bersekers and then, taking town with guardsman, and just one Thunder hit, was enough to allow the Bers. to finish the job, and often a Thund. is enought to kill a wounded unit, and the only hope for the enemy is hoping that he misses, if Thunder would always hit, that would put in trouble not only Rebels, but any faction.
Also it would take away the thrill and suspence, if you already know that he will hit for sure.

Plus Thunderer, has a higher risk-reward value than for example the Horseman, cause he dosent get always retaliation, and if he gets some its little compared to HM also thanks to his resistance and his high def. on Hills/Mountains/Castles.
And can live on taking more chances to hit.
And let's don't forget that his melee attack is kinda strong, considering that he's a ranged unit, it dosent matter how you attack him, you always risk counter attack damage, and maybe risking to day the next turn, because of retaluation wounds.
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Krogen
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by Krogen »

Another point i failed to address: level ups exist.
How would the 14-1 damage change upon advancement? Thunderer with intelligent levels in 3 kills, and make no mistake, if this ever became a thing, people would spam it, it would become the backbone unit in no time. It would be extremely easy to feed kills to one or multiple intelligent ones, due to high number of units and 100% reliability in finishing. Thunderguard does 28-1 ranged damage, so the logical improvement for the second attack would be somewhere between 20 and 24. That is just extreme, and let's not forget that Thunderguard is a possible leader, so it can be on the field from turn 1. Knalgans in general usually hold villages against rushes or attacks, they have a hard time retaking them if they are lost. Now in this case, with a Thunderguard leader, that stops being a problem.
This is a good idea for a wild add-on, but has no place neither in Default, nor Ladder Era.
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