Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.
Will not the burner be trading in its fire melee for some other attack type though?
This would be a decent alternative to a ranged fire attack in terms of lore (the mythology of jinn causing sandstorms) and balance (still works better on loyalists than drakes). Swarm is a harmful trait meant for attacks that have many (individually weak) strikes. Due to this new weakness plus the nature of a sandstorm, I would also give such an attack "slows".Xalzar wrote: ↑December 13th, 2018, 12:03 am Or it could be a "sand storm" attack with impact damage, swarm special like the UtBS Dust Devil.
Fair point, I will revise both proposals to have 3 poison strikes.
Full versions of my naga proposals:Pentarctagon wrote: ↑December 13th, 2018, 1:35 am Could someone post a full set of stats for what they think the naga should be, at least for the level one? I'm getting somewhat lost with all the various suggestions on what could be tweaked or redone across multiple posts by multiple people.
Code: Select all
name= Naga Spitter
cost=15
xp=33
hp=29
moves=7
move_type=naga (but maybe 50% sand defense)
alignment=lawful
attack1:
name= blade whip
range=melee
type=blade
damage=6
strikes=2
specials=firststrike
attack2:
name= venom
range=ranged
type=pierce
damage=2
strikes=3
specials=poison
Code: Select all
name= Naga Ringcaster
cost=15
xp=33
hp=29
moves=7
move_type=naga (but maybe 50% sand defense)
alignment=lawful
attack1:
name= fangs
range=melee
type=pierce
damage=2
strikes=3
specials=poison
attack2:
name= blade ring
range=ranged
type=blade
damage=3
strikes=4
Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.
note that the whip wouldn't work well in water too much water resistance and whip length would hinder the user. Thus it can not be a first strike attack.Full versions of my naga proposals:
but overall the attacks you have suggested are too weak for most level 1 recruit based units they are more like level 0 attack ranges
yes it seems under-powered to me considering most poison attack have more attack power behind a 2 strike attack even the naga hunter has more power. i would suggest adding another strike. right now the attack power seems to be level 0 than a level 1.That seems somewhat underpowered to me
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.
Personally I consider lore to be more important, but at the same time I don't see increased mushroom defense as contradicting the lore.ghype wrote: ↑December 12th, 2018, 3:07 pm at the very beginning we thought that the 50% fungus would be a nice trait and would help DF in certain situation in a fairly balanced matter. But the reasons lorewise to not 50% on fungus is understandable after user "name" brought up some valid points against it and enforcing the lore. Now we would have to decide what is more important, Lore or Balance?
For the record, there totally are fungi in the desert. I don't know how common they are, mind you.ghype wrote: ↑December 12th, 2018, 3:07 pm Alternativly, there are options to buff it only for , lets say only liminal units, or maybe even more sustainable for the lore - we'd buff the fungus def only for the herbalist, since fungi and herbs is that what he probably deals with the most (even if fungi are rare in deserts/dunes).
Ideally, we could ignore the buff for any other unit in DF so we can buff the herbalists def from 60% instead of just 50%!
Personally, lawful makes the most sense for a jinn, lore-wise.
By the way, we might also want to discuss what the singular of "jinn" will be and whether to spell it with a D.
Chakram is indeed a cool weapon (I don't think I like "blade ring" though), but urumi seems overly weird. Also, "blade whip" to me would evoke a single-tailed weapon, like the Chinese version.
I'm not overly fond of the bite/spit idea, but I'd probably prefer bite over spit.
Personally, I think sand ambush should be reserved for the (hypothetical) sand worm monster (possibly based on the Mongolian Death Worm). I also think jinn should definitely be primarily fire-based, though I'm not against them having a sand-impact attack (or if you want pierce, you could make it glass).
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.
So, current proposals for the level one Naga:
#2 is The_Gnat's, which as I've said looks underpowered to me.
#3 and #4 are name's, which I think is okay - the lower cost and additional strike for the poison attack are good - though I still prefer #1.
As a specific example regarding mushrooms though, on the Freelands map, the villages at 27,16 and 11,9 are adjacent only to flat and a single mushroom tile. Every single other faction has multiple units they can put there that have improved defense - except the Dunefolk, who also have no units who can take advantage of the forest tiles along the center area of the map's three "lanes".
Code: Select all
name=Naga Poisoner hp=28 xp=35 cost=17 moves=7 alignment=liminal attack1: name=spear specials=poison type=pierce strikes=2 damage=6 attack2: name=bow type=pierce strikes=3 damage=3 resistances: arcane=0% blade=-10% cold=0% fire=0% impact=-20% pierce=-10% terrain defense,movement costs: castle=50%,1 coastal reef=70%,1 deep water=60%,1 flat=40%,2 forest=50%,3 fungus=50%,2 hills=50%,3 mountains=40%,3 sand=50%,1 shallow water=70%,1 swamp=70%,1 village=50%,1
Code: Select all
name=Naga Poisoner hp=28 cost=16 moves=7 alignment=liminal movetype=naga #all defenses and movement costs the same by as the default naga attack1: name=spear specials=poison type=pierce strikes=2 damage=6 attack2: name=bow type=pierce strikes=3 damage=3 resistances: arcane=0% blade=-10% cold=0% fire=0% impact=-20% pierce=-10%
Code: Select all
name= Naga Spitter cost=15 xp=33 hp=29 moves=7 move_type=naga (but maybe 50% sand defense) alignment=lawful attack1: name= blade whip range=melee type=blade damage=6 strikes=2 specials=firststrike attack2: name= venom range=ranged type=pierce damage=2 strikes=3 specials=poison
Code: Select all
name= Naga Ringcaster cost=15 xp=33 hp=29 moves=7 move_type=naga (but maybe 50% sand defense) alignment=lawful attack1: name= fangs range=melee type=pierce damage=2 strikes=3 specials=poison attack2: name= blade ring range=ranged type=blade damage=3 strikes=4
#2 is The_Gnat's, which as I've said looks underpowered to me.
#3 and #4 are name's, which I think is okay - the lower cost and additional strike for the poison attack are good - though I still prefer #1.
I'd have to disagree with lore being more important than balance - it would be better to have a balanced faction for playing with, and if there's anything particularly unusual about some stat or detail, then it can be explained by a sentence or three in a unit description or the race description.Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑December 14th, 2018, 2:33 amPersonally I consider lore to be more important, but at the same time I don't see increased mushroom defense as contradicting the lore.ghype wrote: ↑December 12th, 2018, 3:07 pm at the very beginning we thought that the 50% fungus would be a nice trait and would help DF in certain situation in a fairly balanced matter. But the reasons lorewise to not 50% on fungus is understandable after user "name" brought up some valid points against it and enforcing the lore. Now we would have to decide what is more important, Lore or Balance?
As a specific example regarding mushrooms though, on the Freelands map, the villages at 27,16 and 11,9 are adjacent only to flat and a single mushroom tile. Every single other faction has multiple units they can put there that have improved defense - except the Dunefolk, who also have no units who can take advantage of the forest tiles along the center area of the map's three "lanes".
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.
In that case buff it to 6-2 damage or decrease the price.Pentarctagon wrote: ↑December 13th, 2018, 6:26 am That seems somewhat underpowered to me then, honestly. It's a squishy, somewhat expensive unit with the least reliable poison attack in the mainline factions.
I agree with you that it is under powered for the price. Could you modify your most recent post (list of proposals #2) to cost 1 less and hit 6-2 melee.
I personally can see the naga thematically filling the liminal role more. Furthermore I think it would add to the deployment of the faction to have it as liminal.
Yes, I don't believe that burner can be used as an argument for or against anything because it is not set in stone. The overall balance is the aim and so with that in mind I believe we should make the proposals considering the long term achievement of this aim.
I agree. It is not enough of an issue to really make any significant difference. I would go as far as saying it is a non-factor. When the factions are truly balanced the difference will not be determined by single hexes scattered throughout the map and a few percentile difference.
That is not to say I don't support the change. The DF can use all the buffs possible.
It is not that we don't think we can balance arcane. It is just a step in the wrong direction. Fire seems to make more sense for the current match ups, and so in order to have a discussion it would need some compelling reasons that justify it over fire.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.
Done.The_Gnat wrote: ↑December 14th, 2018, 9:09 amIn that case buff it to 6-2 damage or decrease the price.Pentarctagon wrote: ↑December 13th, 2018, 6:26 am That seems somewhat underpowered to me then, honestly. It's a squishy, somewhat expensive unit with the least reliable poison attack in the mainline factions.
I agree with you that it is under powered for the price. Could you modify your most recent post (list of proposals #2) to cost 1 less and hit 6-2 melee.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.
About Naga proposals. I don't like #3 mainly due to ranged poison, but I'm not fond of the general concept either. #4 is interesting but seems very weak in terms of damage output so I'm not sure if it would be able to fight competently against other factions' water control units. I'm for something between #1 and #2. The only difference is +1 gold cost and better movetype for #1. However, I think #1 has too strong a movetype. Compared to standard Naga movetype that #2 has, proposal #1 has the following advantages:
castle -1 mp
coastal reef -1 mp
deep water +10% def
flat +10% def
forest +10% def
fungus +10% def
hills +10% def
mountains -2 mp
sand +10% def
shallow water +10% def
swamp +10% def
village +10% def
I agree with improvements to movetype on sand, deep and shallow water and coastal reef. I'm against improvements to forest, hills and mountains movetype. If horsemen generally can't go into mountains, I don't see why amphibious unit whose purpose is water control would be able to. I'd even be fine with Naga being completely unable to go there. Mainline naga can move in mountains at the cost of 5mp and that's completely fine as I'm concerned. With that, naga can go into mountains, but just one hex. Lvl 3 naga from Pentarctagon's proposal would be able to move 2 hexes there if quick.
I'm unsure about improvements to castle, flat, fungus, swamp and village terrains. If flat gets +10%, it makes sense for hills and forests to also get +10%. In any case, I support a movetype better than that of a standard naga (for all proposals). But I think #1 goes a bit too far with it. Maybe I'd even agree with 50% def on hills and forests and 40% on flat if castle mp cost remains at 2 and village def at 40%.
castle -1 mp
coastal reef -1 mp
deep water +10% def
flat +10% def
forest +10% def
fungus +10% def
hills +10% def
mountains -2 mp
sand +10% def
shallow water +10% def
swamp +10% def
village +10% def
I agree with improvements to movetype on sand, deep and shallow water and coastal reef. I'm against improvements to forest, hills and mountains movetype. If horsemen generally can't go into mountains, I don't see why amphibious unit whose purpose is water control would be able to. I'd even be fine with Naga being completely unable to go there. Mainline naga can move in mountains at the cost of 5mp and that's completely fine as I'm concerned. With that, naga can go into mountains, but just one hex. Lvl 3 naga from Pentarctagon's proposal would be able to move 2 hexes there if quick.
I'm unsure about improvements to castle, flat, fungus, swamp and village terrains. If flat gets +10%, it makes sense for hills and forests to also get +10%. In any case, I support a movetype better than that of a standard naga (for all proposals). But I think #1 goes a bit too far with it. Maybe I'd even agree with 50% def on hills and forests and 40% on flat if castle mp cost remains at 2 and village def at 40%.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.
Some comments on this based on lore...
The improvements to deep water strike me as a little dubious. That would actually make the naga better than merfolk in deep water. This may be only my interpretation, but I see merfolk as being more at home in deeper water while the nagas are more at home in shallower waters (though the merfolk don't live in the deep water). So I'd say drop the +10% deep water defense relative to the naga fighter.
On the other hand, I don't mind the improvement in shallow water. Although the mainline merfolk and naga perform the same there, I think it's reasonable that some nagas could do better than the merfolk. The same argument applies to the coastal reef movement buff and the swamp buff.
For nagas that live near a desert, it definitely makes sense to improve their defense on sand, so I'm in favour of that. I wouldn't be against even improving their movement on sand.
I agree on the mountain improvement not making a lot of sense. I'd say leave mountains at 5 mp like the naga fighter (assuming the unit actually has 5 mp, of course).
For the castle, village, forest, flat, and hills improvements, I'm pretty ambivalent. I can see nagas doing decently well in a forest, at least. I can also see an argument for the flat improvement based on the sand improvement (flat probably shouldn't be 20% worse than sand).
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.
For #1 then, how about:
Deep water is back to 50% dodge, mountains are back to costing 5 MP, and villages are back to 40%.
For flat now being 40%, my thought was that I didn't want it to have less than 40% on one of the most common terrains while also now having negative physical resistances.
Code: Select all
terrain defense,movement costs:
castle=50%,1
coastal reef=70%,1
deep water=50%,1
flat=40%,2
forest=50%,3
fungus=50%,2
hills=50%,3
mountains=40%,5
sand=50%,1
shallow water=70%,1
swamp=70%,1
village=40%,1
For flat now being 40%, my thought was that I didn't want it to have less than 40% on one of the most common terrains while also now having negative physical resistances.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.
Could it just be called Chakram, I wonder? Or does it need to have a more purely english language based name for the translation process?Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑December 14th, 2018, 2:33 am Chakram is indeed a cool weapon (I don't think I like "blade ring" though)
If the latter case, how about "ring blade", "throwing ring", "ring discus" or "razor ring"?
What if it had 3x5 ranged (chakram)? Or 3x3 melee (fangs)? Or both?
Doing either will increase its damage output by 3 (and doing both will increase it by 6).
Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.
I feel like 3x5 ranged and 3x3 melee poison would be better balanced for water control. Thematically I personally still prefer a spear to fangs though.
What would you say are the main advantages of a Naga which is more powerful on ranged attacks than melee?
I agree the combination of flat less than 40 and negative resistances would be a lot. However many units have 40% on flat so it is average as a land unit except for the higher movement costs. Though it is looking pretty decent as far as the stats go now.Pentarctagon wrote: ↑December 15th, 2018, 9:56 pm For #1 then, how about:Code: Select all
terrain defense,movement costs: castle=50%,1 coastal reef=70%,1 deep water=50%,1 flat=40%,2 forest=50%,3 fungus=50%,2 hills=50%,3 mountains=40%,5 sand=50%,1 shallow water=70%,1 swamp=70%,1 village=40%,1
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.
That's not an easy question/ I think something involving "discus" would be best if it needs to be indisputably English, but "chakram" may be identifiable enough to just use directly.
Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.
That will make it a bit better overall than the merman hunter of the rebels. Which isn't necessarily a problem since the game is balanced faction-vs-faction rather than unit-vs-unit. And the merman hunter may be a bit under powered anyway.
There is also the option of raising the gold by one and/or lowering the hit points by two to compensate a bit for the better attacks.
These are the thematic advantages I find fangs have over a spear:
1) Spears and tridents are heavily used by mermen already.
2) Spears are pretty mundane.
3) Naga are highly serpentine, and in mythology half cobra (probably king cobra). Wesnoth's naga likely do have fangs.
4) Fangs deliver poison just as well underwater. Poison would wash off a spear without a lot of crazy explanation to the contrary.
5) The weak but poisonous melee attack of fangs combined with a nonpoisonous but highly immediately damaging ranged attack is unique.
There is already a powerful naga melee fighter; the one employed by the northerners. This would be more like the naga equivalent of the merman hunter. That is, a more missile oriented aquatic unit, but taken in a different direction with the lighter but faster exotic chakram attacks and weaker but poisonous melee. And as a naga, naturally better mobility but weaker staying power than a mermish.
I guess it can just be chakram for now. The name of the unit might also work to help describe the weapon.Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑December 15th, 2018, 11:32 pmThat's not an easy question. I think something involving "discus" would be best if it needs to be indisputably English, but "chakram" may be identifiable enough to just use directly.
Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.
That sounds like really good reasoning for fangs over a spear. And thinking about it further I definitely can see the advantages to having a more powerful ranged attack. And as previously pointed out more strikes for poison makes the unit more viable.
Overall I actually think I support Pentaractogon's suggestions for hp and movement most but you have convinced me that your proposed attacks would be best.
So here is the new Ringcaster (a combination of all the previous ideas) with the noted reduced hp and increased cost.
Code: Select all
name=Naga Ringcaster
hp=28
xp=35
cost=17
moves=7
alignment=liminal
Resistances:
Impact=-20%
Pierce=-10%
Blade=-10%
attack1:
name= fangs
range=melee
type=pierce
damage=3
strikes=3
specials=poison
attack2:
name= chakram
range=ranged
type=blade
damage=3
strikes=5
terrain defense,movement costs:
castle=50%,1
coastal reef=70%,1
deep water=50%,1
flat=40%,2
forest=50%,3
fungus=50%,2
hills=50%,3
mountains=40%,5
sand=50%,1
shallow water=70%,1
swamp=70%,1
village=40%,1
Last edited by The_Gnat on December 16th, 2018, 8:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.
And, just to confirm, it would have normal resistances(0% for everything)?
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