Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by name » December 5th, 2018, 6:01 pm

Pentarctagon wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 12:34 am
Making the new unit be a good fit is really what I think the main goal should be. If it's also really unique and different, then great, but fitting into the faction takes precedence, at least in my mind.
But how is a second naga unit a better fit than a (more unique) jinni or roc?

An aquatic unit will only really be helpful targeting the water control issue. A flying/hovering move type unit, being generally useful on more terrain types, can simultaneously help other balance problems, such as by countering certain loyalist units.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 2:36 am
Pentarctagon wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 1:57 am
Is this mentioned somewhere? Neither them being venomous nor like a cobra is mentioned in their race description or the naga fighter line's descriptions, at least.
I assume his intention is to call back to the actual Indian mythology there.
That is correct.
The_Gnat wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 1:50 am
I wouldn't oppose a venomous bite but I believe two strikes are probably the best for balanced. Also close in combat is probably a snakes first choice but not always practical under water so I would see them carrying weapons and why not stick some poison on those weapons as well.
As someone already mentioned, the poison would wash off the weapon in the water. This is not an issue for a venomous bite, however.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » December 5th, 2018, 6:31 pm

name wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 6:01 pm
But how is a second naga unit a better fit than a (more unique) jinni or roc?
It's not necessarily about how well it fits but instead what role we are trying to fill and whether there us general consensus on the issue. Everyone could agree about water control, replacing the falcon, and adding poison. That doesn't at all prevent us from adding a Jinni to the faction as well afterwards. We just have to identify the issues we believe it will address.
Pentarctagon wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 1:33 pm
Im not sure. Would the naga unit be more in the vein of a regular fighter, or more like an orcish assassin type of unit
I proposed originally 28hp for various reasons and compared to other similar units. I believe because it has poison it is inevitably a specialist unit or it would be OP. That would also probably put it in the cost range of the assassin. So maybe 16/17 gold?

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by ghype » December 5th, 2018, 6:32 pm

name wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 6:01 pm
But how is a second naga unit a better fit than a (more unique) jinni or roc?
If you are afraid that two nagas are one too much, I'd like to remind that merfolk has three already units where as nagas only one. Together with the option to mainline naga hunter, this would be a great reason to add the dunefolk naga too. We'd end up having 3 nagas and 3 merfolk units.

name wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 6:01 pm
An aquatic unit will only really be helpful targeting the water control issue. A flying/hovering move type unit, being generally useful on more terrain types, can simultaneously help other balance problems, such as by countering certain loyalist units.
I don't think that many dismissed the idea of a Jini. Its just , based on our discussion, most lore and ideas were established for a naga. I am eager to test play a jini too. But such a unit would need more lore to make people understand why they have jinis fighting for them, why they work with magical creatures, etc ... Also, if you have anything in mind how such a Jini should look like stats wise, you are welcome to post them here. The more options we have the better. Currently naga is only more formed option we have.

name wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 6:01 pm
As someone already mentioned, the poison would wash off the weapon in the water. This is not an issue for a venomous bite, however.
There were also explanation provided how the poison would not wash off. My favourite and richest in lore is that the naga hunters use shards and the dunefolk naga uses spines or ribs to make their weapon of.Bones off the Sea Serpent, bones which are poisonous to living creatures.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Edwylm » December 5th, 2018, 8:48 pm

ghype wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 6:32 pm
There were also explanation provided how the poison would not wash off. My favourite and richest in lore is that the naga hunters use shards and the dunefolk naga uses spines or ribs to make their weapon of.Bones off the Sea Serpent, bones which are poisonous to living creatures.
I can't see bones being poisonous. venom or poison are kept it sacks that store them. bones are not poisonous unless its made up of some other compound. this method might be complicated as with background and lore.

stingray stingers, lionfish/sea urchin spines or large animal fangs would work but the attack would be weak as the venom/poison would be stored within the weapon and it needs to break in order for it to be in the bloodstream. having a melee way of doing this would be very dangerous as you need to break part of your weapon. the weapon has to be cheap and easy to make if you have to do the break method.

for your bone idea its possible to do quick stabs or keep your weapon in your opponent to poison them but quick stabs wouldn't be fast acting as the bone still needs to be able the break down. Also it would degrade your weapon and needs to be replaced quite a bit. or having it as a range attack that the head would be barbed so pulling it out would be harder thus causing the bone to break down more. Also hunting down Water Serpents(Sea Serpent doesn't have a poison attack) would be dangerous and would not be cost efficiently.

remember ones body is made up of 75% water. breaking a compound will take much longer to cause a poisoning then something already in liquid form.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » December 5th, 2018, 9:22 pm

Edwylm wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 8:48 pm
this method might be complicated as with background and lore.
:D I really like your in depth analysis of poison and agree that the ideal poisons would be liquid based.

Another idea Potentially they could use some sort of injection device like a needle but that seems over complicated and not practical.
Edwylm wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 8:48 pm
would be stored within the weapon and it needs to break
The problem is poison underwater needs to be stored which leaves only 2 feasible options. Either complex storage and deployment such as breaking fangs or alternatively a living injector such as snakes fangs. Any other options would either wash off

I am not opposed to a fang that breaks but I would suppose that would be more common in daggers.

But a more interesting idea and allowing more flexibility in weapon we could say that the nagas spear is actually a living creature. The creatures spines/needles/fangs are deadly and so thr naga uses them as a weapon.

In the fake world of wesnoth perhaps a fake solution such as this would be the best option for the naga. Furthermore the dread eel or horn fish or whatever he attacks with is completely made up so it is entirely up to us what happens and how it happens.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by ghype » December 5th, 2018, 9:56 pm

The_Gnat wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 9:22 pm
But a more interesting idea and allowing more flexibility in weapon we could say that the nagas spear is actually a living creature. The creatures spines/needles/fangs are deadly and so thr naga uses them as a weapon.
This sounds very entertaining, but as Edwylm pointed out, if naga hunter used stored poison for their arrow heads, why couldn't dune nagas.
Edwylm wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 8:48 pm
would be stored within the weapon and it needs to break
it doesnt mean the weapon can still be out of a spine/rib of the sea serpent.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Edwylm » December 5th, 2018, 10:10 pm

The_Gnat wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 9:22 pm
But a more interesting idea and allowing more flexibility in weapon we could say that the nagas spear is actually a living creature. The creatures spines/needles/fangs are deadly and so thr naga uses them as a weapon.

In the fake world of wesnoth perhaps a fake solution such as this would be the best option for the naga. Furthermore the dread eel or horn fish or whatever he attacks with is completely made up so it is entirely up to us what happens and how it happens.
Fantasy world a lot of things can happen. But why does the Cuttle fish's ink attack a pierce??? possible to know as this might be a way for how the naga create the weapon.
The_Gnat wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 9:22 pm
The problem is poison underwater needs to be stored which leaves only 2 feasible options. Either complex storage and deployment such as breaking fangs or alternatively a living injector such as snakes fangs. Any other options would either wash off
not really if you were to use a sea urchin spine its already filled with venom because its already hallow. all one needs is to cut the spines fill it up and plug it with something. the sea urchins do the break method in irl.
it doesn't take a lot of poison/venom to kill a person (depending on the type of poison/venom). main thing is it needs to break in the persons body, the bigger the hole the less effective but the body naturally tries to seal itself after being punctured thus trapping the venom inside.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » December 5th, 2018, 10:36 pm

Edwylm wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 10:10 pm
if you were to use a sea urchin spine its already filled with venom because its already hallow.
Then that is probably the best method. :)
ghype wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 9:56 pm
This sounds very entertaining, but as Edwylm pointed out, if naga hunter used stored poison for their arrow heads, why couldn't dune nagas
Thanks, Yes I agree that would be the best option but just thought to propose another possibility.


I feel like the naga has been sorted out so to return to the previous discussion about the sworsman's shield. The main problem I currently see is that he has a pointless attack. Unlike the other mainline slows units he has slows on melee which makes it more vulnerable.

The previously proposed idea of two strikes and a slightly reduced damage is a good idea because it makes the slowing special much more effective but I wonder if it might make the unit OP.

In contrast with the (also lawful) pikemen the swordsman hits slightly less but has marksman which is a slightly better attack special than first strike. The pikemen is of similar movement and better resistance but overall about equivalent to the dune swordsman. Potentially if the shield becomes a useful attack it could be OP. Any thoughts? I do think think 5-2 slows would be significant but I can definitely see 8-2 as reaching towards over powered.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » December 6th, 2018, 12:41 am

Just to confirm: the next changes agreed upon are:
1) Remove the falcon from being recruitable by the Dunefolk.
2) Add the naga unit.

Correct? And if so (and maybe I missed/am forgetting it), what sprite would the naga unit being using?
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » December 6th, 2018, 2:23 am

Pentarctagon wrote:
December 6th, 2018, 12:41 am
1) Remove the falcon from being recruitable by the Dunefolk.
2) Add the naga unit
Yes that is correct :) Also gyphe has been working on a sprite for the naga but he is not ready yet to show it. However, it is very well done and definitely mainline quality.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by ghype » December 6th, 2018, 10:05 am

Even if we all agreed on this changes, that is not going to be enough make dunefolk comparable to other default factions. In fact, there has to be done a lot more than just that. But it's a start in the right direction.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » December 6th, 2018, 2:03 pm

Right, I wasn't saying this is it, I was just making sure I was on the same page as far as what to do once a sprite is available.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » December 6th, 2018, 7:38 pm

Since we are still discussing the naga I thought we probably should discuss it's advancements as well.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by name » December 7th, 2018, 5:40 am

ghype wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 6:32 pm
If you are afraid that two nagas are one too much, I'd like to remind that merfolk has three already units where as nagas only one.
However, there are still only two recruitable merfolk and one naga in multiplayer. Campaigns are another, much looser department with so many unit variations, but they have little effect on multiplayer and its factions.
ghype wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 6:32 pm
I am eager to test play a jini too. But such a unit would need more lore to make people understand why they have jinis fighting for them, why they work with magical creatures, etc ...
The existing lore does not say anything about them being intolerant of magical creatures, just that they do not understand how magic works themselves. As for some lore explaining their relationship in general, how about something like this:

"""
The jinn have odd but potent talents with which they have aided the dunefolk, especially in times of peril. Likewise they have helped many an obscure individual rise to greatness and authority through heroic deeds. In return they ask only strange favors or treasures of seemingly petty worth.

Yet while the jinn appear to be their loyal servants, many dunefolk wonder who is master of whom. Whereas some take an enemy in part vanquished by the jinn for what it would seem to be, the more suspicious wonder if the danger was only ever a mirage of the jinn's creation. And whereas some see noble wisdom in a jinni's picking of a humble farmer to become, through its guidance, a commander of armies or keeper of a great city, others see the uplifting of a puppet.

Whichever the case may be, it would seem the jinn have a deep, if softly whispered, interest in shifting the fates of the dunefolk.
"""

ghype wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 6:32 pm
Also, if you have anything in mind how such a Jini should look like stats wise, you are welcome to post them here. The more options we have the better.
Alright then, how about this:

I think most people see a jinni as a powerful but rarer unit. So I would put its recruitment cost between 20 to 25 gold.

I imagine it as a cross between a flying movetype scout and a magic caster. An odd attack combination that is fairly powerful, like 2x6 melee fire and 16x1 ranged fire, both magical. Only 22 to 24 hit points though, so fairly fragile.

Defense on most terrains would be either 40% or 50% and very consistently so, but would plummet to 10% or 20% on water and frozen types. Maybe a slight defense boost on cave floor terrain. Move points would be 7 or 8 and would not be negatively affected by most passable terrain types except for frozen. So while the glider and ghost would get reduced movement but full defense over water, the jinni would be the opposite of that, perfect mobility but great vulnerability there.

Pierce resistance would be high, like 30% to 50%. Attacks that are more disruptive of the space the jinni exists in, like blade and impact weapons, it would have minimal to no resistance to (this also presses loyalists to use their weaker units). Positive 50% resistance to fire but negative 50% resistance to cold. Neutral resistance to arcane.
ghype wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 6:32 pm
My favourite and richest in lore is that the naga hunters use shards and the dunefolk naga uses spines or ribs to make their weapon of.
What if like the giant scorpion, it had a single poison bite (or spit) strike but also multiple strikes with a hand wielded weapon that does significantly more damage?

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by ghype » December 7th, 2018, 2:20 pm

name wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 5:40 am
However, there are still only two recruitable merfolk and one naga in multiplayer.
Same case will be here. loy + elves merforlk / orc + dunefolk naga. Mermaid and Naga Hunter would remain campaign units
name wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 5:40 am
The jinn have odd but potent talents with which they have aided the dunefolk, especially in times of peril. Likewise...
I like the lore you established for the Jini. If there would be a Jini added to Dunefolk, I guess your lore would be quite fitting.
name wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 5:40 am
recruitment cost between 20 to 25 gold
agreed
name wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 5:40 am
2x6 melee fire and 16x1 ranged fire, both magical
I agree something like this could be fitting, but even if fire currently seems more fitting, adding another unit with fire dmg type would be senseless since we already have the burner which effectivle deals fir dmg.
name wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 5:40 am
40% or 50% and very consistently so, but would plummet to 10% or 20% on water and frozen types.
Move points would be 7 or 8
I'd like the Jini to be a floating unit, but 10%/20% on water would be a big problem for water control. That was the whole point of adding new units.
I'd probably set it to 6 or tops 7 without traits. so the rider (which now has 8mp) remains as main scout.
name wrote:
December 7th, 2018, 5:40 am
Pierce resistance would be high, like 30% to 50%.
blade and impact weapons, it would have minimal to no resistance to
Positive 50% resistance to fire but negative 50% resistance to cold
Neutral resistance to arcane
Only 22 to 24 hit points though, so fairly fragile.
resistences really depend also on the hp you give unit. your suggested hp makes this unit surviving pretty hard. It closer to ghost which has 50% to all physical. neutral arcane can be interesting, but -50% cold or fire is too much. Any magician could kill this Jini in one or two hits.


What instead of we make "fire-jini" we just make a simple Jini which uses maybe cold dmg type instead of fire, which would be way more beneficial.
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