Random Map Picker

[Rigor]

Does that mean you're adopting it? I don't want this one.

LOL WHAT? no way, YOU ARE ADOPTING IT j.k, we can drop it for the time being, i also dont like to work on this map for now - id rather concentrate on some other maps atm. like dungeon wars, for instance. i think its a cosy 1v1 map with a lot of action, which makes the game interesting rather sooner than later, and that we should focus on this one next, because, as you said urself, it really HAS potential. it was played a lot of times, not only because its part of the creepfest scenario but also because tis there for a longer time already and i thought we could make it (hopefully easily) into one of the competitive maps in the near future because so far quite interesting 1v1s resulted from it.

for arcanclave citadel there is one problem that we will have to face: i hope u are aware of the distinguished creepiness factor (x + (y*0,735)) of this very special map, and that some ppl dont want to play it AT ALL. exactely those ppl wouldnt like to play the "modern" map pack, and prefer to stick with the old one. i dont really like that thought, and you could easily bring forward the following argument, saying, there are many new maps, and the same ppl wouldnt play the modern map pack because of 1 of the other maps that doesnt suit them, but this is not the case. arcanclave is very different in that respect (recruit anywhere on the whole map as soon as u have reached the top or bottom center point where u can walk to the left or to the right with ur leader) and im not sure if everybody would love me for bringing it into a package with rather "normal" maps where u recruit ur units in one keep and send them off to war.

yesterday there was a nice ladder game on northern line, and it was a pretty big battle, and until i left, i still couldnt decide who would emerge victorious. altogether it was not as bad as i thought it would be so maybe u take a look at the ladder game nelson vs henry. orcs vs dwarves, in this one. http://ladder.subversiva.org/gamedetail ... %3A52%3A28 damn, now i know without seeing the end of it

[Quetzalcoatl]

I think Arcanclave Citadel is fairly superior than any other umc map included (in both terms of balance and theme). Besides that you know I like it . Seriously its hard to imagine for me that I should put in for example some semi finished next grassland map instead of this one .

Anyway what Im considering to do is to increase standard of included maps and reduce amount of them to speed up their development. From now on they should fulfill at least some of the following criterias:
- have unique theme
- have unique design
- have unique gameplay
- have good (dosnt need to be perfect) balance

I also wanted to simplify things a bit, so here is what I want to do:
- classic set (renamed to reflect changes): all popular + Cynsaun Battelfield (after all its official map and I dont see the reason it shouldnt be there)
- adventurous set (in alphabetical order): Aethermaw (cool new map from Doc, I didnt published it yet), Arcanclave Citadel, Astral Port, Crescent Lake, Elensefar Courtyard, Scarred Foothills (this one will be renamed and receive new theme)
- all: classic + adventurous

This means that following will be out:
- Blacksmoke Crater - its a nice map but Im just not sure about it yet enough to include in adventurous
- Dungeon Wars - it has to much terrain and its to narrow, so it isnt balanced and dosnt allow enough maneuver possibilities
- Eye of Tath - need some balancing work and map theme is very classic
- Fast to Madness - balance issues and classic theme again
- Northern Line - village / open terrain ratio could result in very long games, classic theme again
- Serpent Ford - dont like this map anymore mainly because its not open enough and has poor theme anyone who want to take it - feel free to do so
- Unfolding Space - for me this map still have balance issues, besides that like Eye of Tath, Fast to Madness, Northern Line and Serpend Ford its too standard looking
- lUn4r L4nDiN6 - just because , besides that it was success anyway that this map was in addon

Those are the main reasons, but there are probably some less important one that could be find in more close inspection.
So... Those are my proposal for the addon...

[Kolbur]

What is the difference between your theme and design criteria?

Cynsaun Battlefield needs to be kept out of any random selection, hands down. Yes, it's an official map but almost no one wants to random into it ever (me included). As Rigor put it correctly it can still be chosen for a ladder match manually.

My preference for the reorganisation would be:

- classic maps without Cynsaun
- classic maps without Cynsaun + new maps
- new maps

New maps:

- (Arcanclave Citadel): i'm not sure about this one, it's really interesting but many people shy away from it
- Astral Port
- Crescent Lake
- Elensefar Courtyard
- Scarred Foothills
- Serpent Ford: It's a good map and I wonder why you think it's not open, Quetz...
- Unfolding Space: I think it went through a good evolution and is fairly balanced now, also the gameplay is unique imo, not looking unique enough shouldn't be a kill criteria

Maps that stay out:

Blacksmoke Crater (haven't seen a single game on it), Dungeon Wars, Eye of Tath, Fast to Madness, Northern Line:
They have all balance issues
Aethermaw:
I respect Doc's map work but it's new to me and I haven't seen it. Putting it in would be converse to removing all the other maps. It can be added at a later time when it is tried and tested.

[Doc Paterson]

(recruit anywhere on the whole map as soon as u have reached the top or bottom center point where u can walk to the left or to the right with ur leader)

I'll probably weigh in on the other stuff later (or more likely, on the server in an hour or two, if you're around), but I just wanted to comment on this:

It's not like a ticking clock, like "The leader is only two moves away! The keep will soon be flooded with enemy units!" This is only true for a defender who is inexperienced with the map. Breaking through to an enemy recruiting hex is pretty difficult, and the move itself is, in my experience, just about always easy to react to and block, on sight (as opponsed to "Oh, I guessed wrong about his leader's location, now I'm screwed..." The defender has the huge advantage of being able to recruit units to block the attempt, while the leader trying to break through generally has less support. If they do succeed, it is usually at a high gold cost in units, which tends to drain away any potential "keep flooding." So yes, I want it to be possible for a smart offense to do this. Whether there are some locations where it's too easy is a good matter for investigation and discussion. I have a feeling that Q may have a version that is one or two versions before the current (honestly, I can't remember for sure if anyone has the newest), in which a small change was made to the northern left-of-center area and the southern right-of-center area.

[Doc Paterson]

Tada....


http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=31220

[Rigor]

after 4 games yesterday i just reconsidered my position about arcanclave.

aethermaw is now no.1 creepy map of the season!

might be hard for a carefree 1600 ladder player to pick the mappack that will give him this one, and then suddenly after positioning his troops somewhere around that black...line...the hexes disappear, he doesnt know what the replacement looks like, and, oh-wow het gets surrounded and bashed properly for his curiosity to try new maps its also very interesting for me to see that i had just 7/22 vills, i know, ur on it, but still

summary: its cool to play on a map which changes it looks, but it needs a whole lot of time to get used to it. definitely not something id like in a ladder games selection. i wont take it in the new map pack, because, before id do that, it would have to be played for at least 1 month plus a little chit chat how ppl liked it would have to evaluated. not just the great ideas from max. 4 ppl

so when are we on terms to introduce the newest version of the mappack? what is still holding us back atm? i would like to finish this discussion.

i think kolbur and i have made a good list of maps that should be included in the conservative approach (and why not calling it conservative, for it is what it is!) and the complete/all mappack. i am still not sure ppl would like to have a "very new maps" mappack but if u think it makes sense why not including it too. in this case, i would suggest we do it finally, and make the following mappack, shifting elensefars courtyard from new maps to consertative/classic/old branch.

* Conservative - Caves of the Basilisk, Cynsaun Battlefield, Den of Onis, Fallenstar Lake, Hamlets, Hornshark Island, Howling Ghost Badlands, Sablestone Delta, Silverhead Crossing, Sulla's Ruins, The Freelands, Weldyn Channel, Elensefar's Courtyard

* ALL - Caves of the Basilisk, Cynsaun Battlefield, Den of Onis, Fallenstar Lake, Hamlets, Hornshark Island, Howling Ghost Badlands, Sablestone Delta, Silverhead Crossing, Sulla's Ruins, The Freelands, Weldyn Channel, plus the safe new maps - Unfolding Space - Serpent Ford - Scarred Foothills - Crescent Lake - Astral Port - Dungeon Wars

* New - Unfolding Space - Serpent Ford - Scarred Foothills - Crescent Lake - Astral Port - Dungeon Wars - Arcanclave Citadel - Aethermaw

should be ok like that, finally. and what about dungeon wars? its not really new (been downloaded around a 1000 times i think during the last year, and played extensively), and its cool - i dont know what to change on the map to make it more interesting as it is right now, any suggestions, any exploits? ? we dont have to solve it shortly before we release a new map pack but id very much like to include it in the next if some changes would make you happy.

[Quetzalcoatl]

Well, we should put border somewhere between personal presences and greater idea of random map pack, shouldn't we? So lets not lose big point of it. As far as I remember the reason for random map pack was to:

a) give more spotlight to other maps than Freelands and Weldyn (don't remember exactly but about 50% - 70% of games were played on them)
b) help to develop and evolve new original maps

You know... Based on that what was going in the past the most enjoyed and appreciated addon would be probably the one that would select randomly form one of two maps: Freelands and Weldyn. Unfortunately both of those maps are not in my favorites map list and if I had to pick two maps for random addon I would select Silverhead and Sulla. While I personally think Silverhead is the best map in current 1v1 set many people think its unbalanced (I disagree with them but thats not topic about that) and Sulla was if I remember correctly second last played map after Cynsaun. This somehow shows that having map pack that fits everybody preferences is goal impossible to archive. So what's about Cynsaun then? Well its far from being one of my favorite maps (actually I dont remember if I played it on mp server) but I remember I saw Dauntless and Coriolan playing it quite regularly in the past so they probably like it. I see no point in enforcing my preferences over somebodys else and whats even worse to re-judge mainline maps. It may look like not a big deal now just to remove this one little map (a big one actually) but what will happen when new mainline maps will be added? I guess all new maps will have hard times right after inclusion and many people wont like them right form the beginning, its just the way people get used to old things probably. On the other side you can always restart game you dont want to play (like most folks restart mirrors) while this simplified set would give other people (who want to play those maps even if they are not a big fans of them) opportunity not only to play but maybe also to finally provide some balancing data and replays that will help improve them in the future, and after all we all benefit in the long run form that. What do you think?

Kolbur:

About theme / design:
By theme I had in mind something like overall feeling of the map that inflicts how people will perceive it. I think Fallenstar lake is a good example. Its one of green looking maps that is very unique probably because of general concept that isnt reflected by unusual terrain usage for example. By design I had in mind overall usage of terrain like how map looks and what opportunities for players it provides. Its very likely I used bad words to define those criteria but I wasnt also thinking about grouping them much

Serpent Ford:
Seriously I dont like this map much anymore. I have however some plans for it but they are nowhere on the top of my wesnoth todo list, so I guess it would be the best to leave this map for a while and give chance to other maps. Seriously it was designed to be kind of 1v1 Isar (thats so bad...), and its still suffers from that.

Unfolding Space:
I agree with most of the things you said besides that stuff about killing. Its most likely the map that together with Rigor's one is most close for inclusion. Its a nice map but somebody has to take care of it as I dont have a time for doing so. Do some tweaks here and there give it decent look / theme. Otherwise its kind of slot stealing by actually dead map. I would appreciate if somebody would like to do so.

Rigor:

C'mon are you trying to say you like this map less than maps that going out (I wonder about criteria)? Never saw you protesting so much but seriously you know that to be ranked on ladder accurately you need hundreds of games , so I really do not understand yours argumentation. I guess one game is not a big deal then . Im fine with including Elensefar if more people want it to happen it wasnt included in 1.8 but its there right now so its up to you where you want to have it. There is no deadline for posting in this topic (Im going to do changes at the end of the week or start of the new one), but I want to give opportunity for people to explain what they are thinking about random addon / changes as I have enough of making pointless changes all the time like making sets moving maps between them and so on and when I will decide to do that one update its more likely I will be less open to further changes I guess...

[Doc Paterson]

Rigor- Good Lord, do I even have to point out that a map being played as a creep scenario has absolutely zero bearing on its testing as a 1v1? As a 1v1, it looks nice, yes, but the fronts are so close together and the center is so tight, that player 2 can be blown away on first night, never to return. I think Q's last assessment of that map is right on. I'd like it for something in a campaign, but as a 1v1, there would be so, so much work to do. U-Space to me now feels extremely defensive, and I would hope to never play a longer game there due to the way that that small space is going to fill up with units. And Astral Port is awesome, but there are huge abuses that Q and I know about, which are being worked on. I don't say these things to suggest maps be taken out of the pack, I point them out moreso to say "Those 2 new maps scare you? COME ON, that's nothing, there's so much more to be scared about!"

In the several games I've played and watched on Aethermaw now, I've not seen a game that seemed blatantly unbalanced, have you? Post the replay, or describe it, if so. I've seen a chaotic rush succeed once, and I've seen it fail twice. Yes, it can be freaky to not be sure as to which side your opponent has initially sent more units, but that is why the wall drops in three phases. This could even be made more restrictive, if proven necessary, but at the moment, it doesn't appear necessary. It's meant to be a true rotary, unlike maps that I've made to be partial rotaries, like Silverhead and HG Badlands, so I think it's easier here to just fall back and take villages on the opposite side. You start with only 75G, and if someone is bashing you on one side with four units, they're unlikely to have more than one unit, maybe two weak ones on the opposite side.

I guess I'm just disappointed in the logic being used to put some of these other shaky maps in, coexisting with a "let's wait a month and get feedback" style. If that's our way, we'd have about zero maps in this pack. Remember how absolutely abusive some of the old versions of these current maps were? I understand that perhaps these new ones freak people out, but I'm pretty sure that their actual balance is top tier in relation to their current company. I'll be on there again today for some testing- hope to see some of the gang there.

[Rigor]

Never saw you protesting so much

- definitely the prodigy from a species capable of learning, i have made the experience from the last time i did a mappack

when I will decide to do that one update its more likely I will be less open to further changes I guess...

- me too.

"let's wait a month and get feedback" style.

hehe.

"Remember how absolutely abusive some of the old versions of these current maps were?

- oh yes!

I think Q's last assessment of that map is right on. I'd like it for something in a campaign, but as a 1v1, there would be so, so much work to do.

- i would rather not have so, so much work to do atm. ^^

U-Space to me now feels extremely defensive, and I would hope to never play a longer game there due to the way that that small space is going to fill up with units. And Astral Port is awesome, but there are huge abuses that Q and I know about, which are being worked on. I don't say these things to suggest maps be taken out of the pack, I point them out moreso to say "Those 2 new maps scare you? COME ON, that's nothing, there's so much more to be scared about!"

- "as right as possible from the start" - the new policy

Unfolding Space: I agree with most of the things you said besides that stuff about killing. Its most likely the map that together with Rigor's one is most close for inclusion.

what about the New Map? Kolbur has played the latest version of it. and what about this blacksmoke map having maps in a "new map" folder definitely makes them be played a lot more often than having them for DL on the addon server. and it provides nice stats, as we have seen before. this discussion is actually only about which maps are we going to include into the conservative (old) and complete map pack (old + new maps), right? so having the ominous third map pack with "new" maps would solve this problem, imho. this week we will finish the talking, so hurry up with your thinking

[tiboloid]

Hey guys, I'm not sure it is the right place to post given that this thread seems a bit dead, but I want to mention that there is a problem with RMPv29: the random pick exclusion does not work: using it I stumbled upon both Hornshark and Cynsaun.
PMing to Rigor and Quetz also.

Cheers

tibs

[Rigor]

we have version 30 right now, some minor problems have been taken care of and some other problems will be solved when we find them - update first and tell me whats wrong later

[tom030890]

Any chance that info about updates to the random map picker could be posted here? Would be nice to know how the system is changing, so that I know when I need to update my RMP addon.

[Rigor]

request is forwarded

[Madlok]

Make the new classification. Not: conservative, new, all, but: small, medium, large. This will help choose the right timer.

[Velensk]

I don't know if this is the right thread, but when I downloaded the map picker from the server recently there was some kind of bug (the error message cited aethermaw as the problem) and so it doesn't show up on my multiplayer list without me going and fixing it.