A first attempt

[West]

Experimental version using SSO. Yes, I know the percussion is messed up; I'll fix that.

Could you please post a version with higher overall level? Right now I have the volume turned up so loud I hear more hiss than music.

(or might something be broken on my end?)

[IoN]

Another new version, with the rest Rocket Slug's suggestions and Rain's reverb comments implemented.

Could you please post a version with higher overall level? Right now I have the volume turned up so loud I hear more hiss than music.

(or might something be broken on my end?)

Hm, it sounds fine on my headphones. Is anyone else having this problem?

EDIT: oops, that last chord is screwed up in the new version. Ignore, please.

[Rocket Slug]

Wow, it's greatly improved! I'll leave most of the rest of the critique to those who know what they're doing in terms of composition and mixing, so here's just a few thoughts:

1:11-2:02 -- This part's gotten a lot better, but the bass is still a little overpowering. What I like about this part is that both the bass and the violins have beautiful melodies, but you're still leaving the violins out of the picture! When I'm playing a piece where lots of interesting things are going on in the bass and treble, I like to let the melodies "weave" within each other. I might record myself playing piano to demonstrate, but for now I'll try to describe it.

At 1:11, there's the bass swell, but at 1:16 the violins come back into the picture. Let the bass drop off on that chord, they're playing accompaniment, now (you're already doing a fine job of that, just up the violins' volume). The listener has a chance to hear the highs come in, but by 1:20, the bass moves in for a brief few notes, as if they're trying to say, "don't forget about us!" (use this opportunity for a crescendo, maintain the violins' volume and force the bass to catch up. Make this a high point of drama in this section). This also increases the contrast of when all the instruments drop out @ 1:28. 1:40 denotes the return of your bass, but they're awfully quiet. You can create a more dramatic buildup by starting your crescendo with those two lead-in chords followed by the percussion. That's an ironic statement, though, because I'd like to once again complain that the bass is still too loud .

However, in a complimentary note, I love how you did you finale starting @ 5:44. I think you nailed the balance of bass and treble and really made the ending beautiful.

[IoN]

New version with choir in the second half to make it vary from the first half a little more. It's experimental; if the choir doesn't work, I'll take it out.

Thanks for the additional comments, Rocket Slug; I'll be sure to implement those in the next version.

[West]

First of all, to anyone who listens to this: the out of tune woodwinds is my fault, not IoN's. The SSO samples are still beta.

I gotta say IoN, this piece is starting to come together very nicely. The slightly medieval-tinged melodies are perfect for Wesnoth and the incorporation of the Wanderer theme is very tasteful and fitting. You show some remarkable skill at making full and rich arrangements, especially when it comes to blending strings and winds. All in all a solid and very promising piece. It still needs work -- don't be afraid to use more percussion! -- but you've made some impressive progress since the first version.

Here's the obligatory 'however' though: The production isn't very good. Everything sounds oddly weak and remote, like you've just inserted a big hall reverb on the stereo master. It's impossible to make out any details and some softer instruments like the harp are barely discernible in the wash of reverb. Exactly what are you doing when it comes to mixing? Don't be afraid to ask if there's something that you're not sure how to go about. I might add that if this sounds great on your speakers, don't trust them. You're most likely in need of a better monitoring system.

Great work nonetheless, musically this is turning out to be a very nice piece. It's going to need some considerable improvements in the mixing/mastering department before it can be considered for mainline though.

[IoN]

Less overpowering bass, as requested by RocketSlug.

On the subject of ambience and reverb: I use Garritan Ambience, applying a heavy church reverb to the harp and percussion, a heavy concert hall reverb to the brass, a lighter recital hall reverb to the woodwind and strings, and a generic concert hall master reverb. All are presets. I can post screenshots of the settings if you'd like.

[West]

On the subject of ambience and reverb: I use Garritan Ambience, applying a heavy church reverb to the harp and percussion, a heavy concert hall reverb to the brass, a lighter recital hall reverb to the woodwind and strings, and a generic concert hall master reverb. All are presets. I can post screenshots of the settings if you'd like.

Ah. I think this is part of the problem with your mix.

First of all, Ambience is not a great verb for orchestral stuff (as was discussed in some old thread, IIRC). As to why Garritan chose to bundle it with GPO I have no idea. I'm guessing because it was cheap to license.

Don't get me wrong though, I like Ambience -- but not as an orchestral reverb. It's too cold, tinny and unnatural-sounding. It's great for drums but when I need an orchestra reverb I look elsewhere. A few suggestions:

Anwida Soft DX Reverb Light
Freeverb3 NVerb
EpicVerb

Secondly, do NOT use different reverb inserts for different instruments (unless, of course, we're talking about impulse responses with different positioning). This will throw realism out the window and turn your mix into a mush, as all the various reverb timbres and tails will bleed into each other. Instead, select one good sounding concert hall reverb and route the various instrument groups to it, using varying amounts of the effect to simulate the front-to-back placement of the instruments. This is called a using a 'send' effect.

I don't know how to set stuff like this up in Finale, but theoretically, you should create a new effects bus (or fx channel) with the reverb inserted into it. Set the reverb output to a 100% wet signal. Then add this as a send effect for all instrument groups. For example, 1st violins, 80% reverb. Flutes 70%. Percussion 95-100%. And so on. This is hard to explain as I have no knowledge of the app you're using, feel free to ask if you don't understand what I mean. Anyway, this approach will place all the instruments of your virtual orchestra in a single coherent space, which in turn means that the mix will have a lot more clarity. A word of warning though: don't just pick a random reverb preset, make sure that it sounds good with your samples. Be particularly mindful of booming low end and shrill high frequencies.

Finally, I might also mention that for final mixdowns it might be a good idea to use SIR and some nice impulse response. SIR introduces considerable latency and is quite CPU hungry, which might or might not be a problem when working on a tune. If you're not recording things live, I suppose that would be a non-issue as long as you have CPU cycles to spare.

[West]

An example: this clip uses SSO and one instance of Epicverb routed to the different channels.

[IoN]

Using FreeVerb. Is that too heavy?


Fixed url tag to show properly. - Turuk

[PPH]

Using FreeVerb. Is that too heavy?


Fixed url tag to show properly. - Turuk

But the URL didn't work for me.


EDIT:Now it did. Weird. False alarm. Sorry.

[Turuk]

Works just fine for me, you click on the blue text and your computer downloads silver.ogg. Maybe you did not notice the download? It will not actually take you anywhere.

Also, PPH, you do not have to post again, you can just edit your previous post using the edit button. Or in situations like this where you figure it out, you can even delete the post if you like.

[PPH]

Sorry. I wanted to delete the post, but I didn't know it was possible.

EDIT: On the piece: I like it a lot. Samples sound nice, except, perhaps, for the brass and the percussions. The woodwinds sound particularly good, I think. I find the ending to be a little abrupt.