Traveling Minstrels

[TimothyP]

This is tasty - especially the intro. I love the medieval folk vibe - very good for Wesnoth.

Thanks for putting work into some nice original music!

[jeremy2]

Another new version. I have lengthened two of the sections to make the piece less rushed. This has resulted in a lot of missing melodies and harmonies in places (and some stuff is just a mess, listen to the conga monkey @ 0:38 ), but I'm just trying to get the basic structure down. I'll focus on the intricacies later.

I just realized that I had not listened to the new version. I really like it! I had it playing in the background while I was looking at some emails, and I had to stop a couple of times and admire what was going on in the music.

[Sapient]

I like the new version as well; it seems more like a cohesive, coherent theme now. However, the part at 2:45-2:56 still just doesn't seem to fit with the tranquil/happy mood of the overall piece. If someone decides to use this for an interlude where villagers or elves meet together, then this part could seem strange.

[West]

This is tasty - especially the intro. I love the medieval folk vibe - very good for Wesnoth.

Well, you said you wanted more medieval-sounding stuff so... Thanks Timothy.

I had it playing in the background while I was looking at some emails, and I had to stop a couple of times and admire what was going on in the music.

Thank you, I'm glad you like it. Don't hesitate to point out any oddities though.

However, the part at 2:45-2:56 still just doesn't seem to fit with the tranquil/happy mood of the overall piece. If someone decides to use this for an interlude where villagers or elves meet together, then this part could seem strange.

Hmm... you mean that it might be a tad, uh, bombastic compared to the rest? I simply felt that the piece needed to go somewhere instead of just trodding along at the same dynamic level all the time. I'm so used to hearing it now that I can't say I find it odd though.

Anyway: another new revision. This one is possibly even less finished than the last one. I have named the piece "Traveling Minstrels", because that's the vibe it gives me.

I'm still not sure what to do with the part at 0:43, it sounds sort of dull right now, just a few repeating bars. I had a nice little cor anglais melody there for a while but I removed it again as I feel like I'm just stacking themes again. Intro theme - boom! -- new theme -- boom! -- another new theme, etc.

Also, I have switched to a different violin section sample which needs further adjustments. It's a lot more expressive than the old one but unfortunately it has a very slow attack. I'm trying to add a velocity layer with a very slight detache sample so that I can play softly for a slow attack and harder for a fast attack... but for some reason the edits i make in Vienna aren't audible when I load the file in sfz. I need to tinker a bit more with that one. I might also need to cut some high end off the violins as right now you can clearly hear that the legato violins and the detache violins are not the same instruments *sigh*

And no, this is not ready to be committed yet. I, on the other hand...

[Sapient]

Hmm... you mean that it might be a tad, uh, bombastic compared to the rest? I simply felt that the piece needed to go somewhere instead of just trodding along at the same dynamic level all the time. I'm so used to hearing it now that I can't say I find it odd though.

Ah, but sometimes you want to set a mood and maintain that mood, and in that situation going too far can be a bad thing.

Bombastic is not really the word I was going for; it really does fit excellently as standalone piece. However for something in a game situation where it will likely be looping, it probably could be just as good or better without the crescendo at 3:00. However, I am not a music expert so that's just one man's humble opinion; feel free to disregard.

[jeremy2]

Thank you, I'm glad you like it. Don't hesitate to point out any oddities though.

I am sure I will have things to suggest, as soon as I quit being so obsessive about my own song and my work .

[West]

Sometimes I wonder if I'm too hard on myself... or just not hard enough.

Right now I hate this damn tune. I think it stinks; arrangement, playing, samples, everything. That is usually an indicator that I should leave the piece alone for a few days and return to it with fresh ears.

So... it needs more work. That goes without saying. But if it's good enough to commit, commit away. If it isn't you'll have to wait as I'm not touching this again for a while.

ogg version here. Feel free to edit the tag if needed.

Finally: I would appreciate if someone with good -- as in *really* good -- speakers could have a listen to this and let me know if there's something weird with the stereo image. Mostly I use my modest 2.1 computer speakers (Logitech X-230) when mixing/tweaking, because I assume that most people will be listening to the music through similar speakers. In those it sounds fine. But when I listen to it in my secondary speakers (old but decent home stereo speakers, closest thing I have to studio monitors) the stereo image sounds crazily wide, like everything's hard panned left and right with nothing in the center. I'm not asking for a thorough analysis, a simple "sounds fine to me" or "you might have a point" will do fine.

TIA

[jeremy2]

First of all - please, please, please keep the opening section! It's gorgeous! The second section goes on a bit too long for my taste - I would really like something more melodic rather than repeated chords, though it's nice to start off with. My opinion is that it should start off with something resembling a melody right around 1:00. Maybe even just cut out the section around 1:00-1:15.

From 1:15 on, it seems that you have gotten into the pattern of repeating the melody lines at least once again with a little bit of a variation the second time around. It's OK the first time, but starts to sound a little bit predictable and it rather ruins the effect of the beauttiful part around 2:20 which still follows this pattern but does it much better than the other parts. There are some really good melodies from 1:15 to 2:20, but they need more variation. I really liked 2:50 on in it's own context. I especially liked the monotone string parts throughout it. I think once you add more variation earlier in the piece then the ending will sound better as well.

I'm realizing that I've been working with some rather cheesy sounds for the past few years and I've grown accustomed to things sounding synthy. I think I need to start taking advantage of going to the Utah Symphony performances more often... That being said, the samples sounded fine to me . I have decent pair of headphones that I use (laptop speakers suck!) and I did notice a couple parts where the strings sounded like they were on opposite sides of me. It was kinda strange to hear the cellos and basses on the opposite sides as well, but I suppose you don't really need a traditional orchestral setup as only the music geeks would care anyway. I have noticed that with some cheaper speakers that panning does not sound as wide as an higher quality speakers.

Some advice that I was given a few years ago was to get a good pair of headphones and compose using that. People who are using cheaper speakers will lose a lot of the sound, but it will still sound good to them because that's what they are used to. People who are using better setups will most certainly appreciate the attention to the detail.

[turin]

"Traveking Minstrels"?


I'd fix it, but SVN sends the whole file not the difference and I don't have time to upload 4.5MB of data...

[West]

"Traveking Minstrels"?


I'd fix it, but SVN sends the whole file not the difference and I don't have time to upload 4.5MB of data...

What?? Where does it say that?

[Noyga]

The tags of the .ogg did say :

title=Traveking Minstrels
composer=Mattias Westlund
artist=Mattias Westlund
description=Gameplay music, originally from Northern Rebirth
website=www.scriptorium.se/west
date=2007
album=The Battle for Wesnoth OST
genre=Game
genre=Romantic Classical
copyright=Mattias Westlund (C)2007
license=GPL

I fixed it in SVN

[West]

The tags of the .ogg did say :

title=Traveking Minstrels
composer=Mattias Westlund
artist=Mattias Westlund
description=Gameplay music, originally from Northern Rebirth
website=www.scriptorium.se/west
date=2007
album=The Battle for Wesnoth OST
genre=Game
genre=Romantic Classical
copyright=Mattias Westlund (C)2007
license=GPL

I fixed it in SVN

*scratch head* I'm confused. The tag in the file uploaded to my server did not say that. So which file are we talking about here?

[jeremy2]

Some advice that I was given a few years ago was to get a good pair of headphones and compose using that. People who are using cheaper speakers will lose a lot of the sound, but it will still sound good to them because that's what they are used to. People who are using better setups will most certainly appreciate the attention to the detail.

Just in case you are wondering: yes, I do like to quote myself often. In any case, I just noticed that the song I am currently working on sounds a lot better through my laptop speakers than it does my headphones. Maybe we should make it a requirement that all players of Wesnoth use crappy speakers, that way we won't have to worry about it.

[Noyga]

*scratch head* I'm confused. The tag in the file uploaded to my server did not say that. So which file are we talking about here?

The one ESR did commit in the SVN trunk ...
He might have commited a wrong one, or made this typo by editing the tags.

[West]

The second section goes on a bit too long for my taste - I would really like something more melodic rather than repeated chords, though it's nice to start off with. My opinion is that it should start off with something resembling a melody right around 1:00. Maybe even just cut out the section around 1:00-1:15.

Yeah... that was more or less what I planned on doing. But somehow starting off with some entire new melody directly after the intro felt wrong. Like I'm just stringing together various unrelated little themes. But you're absolutely right, it does sound a bit dull and repetetive, especially since the chord progression in itself isn't exactly interesting.

From 1:15 on, it seems that you have gotten into the pattern of repeating the melody lines at least once again with a little bit of a variation the second time around. It's OK the first time, but starts to sound a little bit predictable and it rather ruins the effect of the beauttiful part around 2:20 which still follows this pattern but does it much better than the other parts. There are some really good melodies from 1:15 to 2:20, but they need more variation.

This is actually more or less by design. I wanted to give this part a happy medieval folk feel (imagine those minstrels finally arriving at the fair, and starting to play), and traditional music is by nature quite repetitive. You seldom hear any really unexpected things happening. So to me it sounds fine, though I have yet to fine-tune the playing in this section. The instruments playing the melody sound a little stiff, aside from the occasional little grace note on the piccolo.

I did notice a couple parts where the strings sounded like they were on opposite sides of me. It was kinda strange to hear the cellos and basses on the opposite sides as well, but I suppose you don't really need a traditional orchestral setup as only the music geeks would care anyway.

This is odd. My virtual seating plan is more or less traditional; 1st violins are panned to the left about 60%, 2nd violins 40% to the left, violas 40% to the right, celli and basses 60% to the right. I had a wider panning originally but it sounded odd with the big reverb, as technically the further you are from the orchestra the more of the reverb you will hear and the narrower the panning will seem. So no, celli and basses should not be on opposite sides but I have honestly not thought about it. I'll have to take a look at this, maybe it's some weird thing happening as these are panned stereo samples.

I read an interesteing article though where some composer said that using a traditional panning in digital orchestration is not really optimal as we are so used to hearing the low end right smack in the middle of the stereo image. He would pan 1st violins hard left, 2nd violins hard right, violas soft left, celli soft right and finally basses in the center. I haven't tried this but he claimed it would actually make a virtual orchestra sound bigger and more alive. *shrug*

Some advice that I was given a few years ago was to get a good pair of headphones and compose using that.

I actually have two pairs of headphones that I use. Well, not at the same time of course I switch between them and compare the sound, just as I do with my two speaker setups. One pair is a Logitech gaming headset, can't remember the model name, and the other is a pair of AKG K-55 headphones. The AKG ones sound better but unfortunately they have a very pronounced high end, which makes them tiring to use for longer periods. After an hour all you hear is sizzling high frequencies.

Composing is fine I guess, but from what I've learned you should never use headphones when mixing. An instrument that is clearly audible in the headphones might be completely buried in the mix when you listen to it on the speakers, and vice versa. And effects, especially reverb, tend to sound radically different.

In any case, I just noticed that the song I am currently working on sounds a lot better through my laptop speakers than it does my headphones. Maybe we should make it a requirement that all players of Wesnoth use crappy speakers, that way we won't have to worry about it.

Yeah, good idea. We could add that to the system requirements: "bad speakers." Or maybe "no speakers", that way we can write whatever music we like -- or none at all