Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

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Danceman
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Re: Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

Post by Danceman » June 26th, 2011, 10:24 pm

Oh I forgot to mention that the randomness in Orions Belt is the deployment, the start of the game your you place your units on the board.

I have been reading about the randomness factor and it seems logical if it wants to try to be a more similar to a war game where this is a unpredictable factor. Its mostly likely because i'm still a newbie and still trying to use my Orions Belt skill (i'm one of the best in the game). Still getting the hang of it not being squares. Any logic there, hex vs square? I miss long range units, not range units that have to be up close.

But like I said, i'm still learning Wesnoth and I do like the game. But I love scifi and would love to see more scifi campaigns, good ones anyways. I so bad at wesnoth that the bots still feel good to me. In Orions Belt the bots are so bad, the only way they can win me is to give them more 4 times the units I have and even than there are ways to get around the bots AI.

In Orions Belt I could use a unit for canon fodder, defence but in Wesnoth since the board is hex, i need almost 2 or 3 units around a healer to defend it for example but even than a bot can go around it. In Orions Belt, since you have a 6 moves rule per turn, only light units could move that fast, medium units use 2 moves per square for example.

Don't take this in a bad way, just trying to learn a new game. I love Orions Belt but the game is closed source and the developers are behide a company that doesn't invest in the game. I did try to convince them to go open source. Its a shame, people that play Orions Belt say its unique and i have had very beautiful matches there. I'm still first in the Ladder and 3rd in the ELO, 2nd in score, 2nd in Gladiator (arenas in the universe).

I want to learn Wesnoth, but I still suck at it.

Is there any where I can learn more strategies in Wesnoth? Some unit combos?

In Orions Belt, there were so many combos, it was so cool, like a unit that paralyzes units than another that replicates when it attacks and grows into more units. Have in the background ships like canons, always firing from the distance.

Have a look at Orions Belt, maybe there are good ideas there for Wesnoth.

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Dixie
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Re: Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

Post by Dixie » June 26th, 2011, 11:50 pm

This is very off-topic, you should start a thread in the Strategy and Tips forum.

But anyway, to get you started, you can look at the How to play series from the wiki. It's very a basic and sometimes a bit outdated, though, so you can also look at this thread.
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Current projects: Internet meme Era, The Settlers of Wesnoth

Danceman
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Re: Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

Post by Danceman » June 27th, 2011, 6:23 pm

Thx

bjhartin
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Re: Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

Post by bjhartin » June 27th, 2011, 8:56 pm

It might help your cause if you could simplify this to something that could be explained in one short paragraph. Although I'm not a fan of your idea, I did wonder why you simply didn't propose:

- An option which would remove the effect of chance. Attacking units would hit with *exactly* the normal frequency, e.g. terrain defense and/or marksman/magic modifers. For example: if an attacker has a 70% chance to hit a given defender, and has four attacks, they would *always* hit three times (0.7 * 4 = 2.8, rounded using Wesnoth's normal rounding method).

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pauxlo
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Re: Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

Post by pauxlo » June 27th, 2011, 11:08 pm

bjhartin wrote:[...]. Although I'm not a fan of your idea, I did wonder why you simply didn't propose:

- An option which would remove the effect of chance. Attacking units would hit with *exactly* the normal frequency, e.g. terrain defense and/or marksman/magic modifers. For example: if an attacker has a 70% chance to hit a given defender, and has four attacks, they would *always* hit three times (0.7 * 4 = 2.8, rounded using Wesnoth's normal rounding method).
This does not work for units with a low number of strikes. For example, a dwarvish thunderer now would either hit always (for attacks against > 50% defense) or not at all (for attacks against < 50% defense) (in the last case, he would not attack, but stay on its mountain instead, or choose another target). What would done for 50% defense?

A better idea would be to always hit, but multiply the damage with 1-defense (e.g. 70% defense means 70% less damage).

This was already done, see the threads in the experimental forum. (There is also a modification which allows mixed settings between the current setting (normal luck factor) and no luck.)

Danceman
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Re: Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

Post by Danceman » August 1st, 2011, 6:23 pm

I would suggest taking a look at Orions Belt (www.orionsbelt.eu). It has no randomness but still very competitive. You can argue it plays like puzzle battle, it turn trying to find the right move, its based on tactics. I love the way it plays, would love a Wesnoth version of it. i'm almost certain this game appeals to chess players.

take a look at this battle, one of the finals of the ladder, very good game:
http://s1.orionsbelt.eu/Battle/Battle.aspx?Id=58418097

Velensk
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Re: Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

Post by Velensk » August 1st, 2011, 7:53 pm

I don't think anyone doubts that you can be very competitive over non random things, merely that wesnoth would be both less interesting, and less difficult to excel at if the dice were removed.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

Mabuse
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Re: Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

Post by Mabuse » August 1st, 2011, 10:21 pm

Dixie wrote:Making a deterministic era would be relatively easy, you know? If it's so important to you, go ahead and create it. There are a few unsolved problems before you do, though, and I'm not sure whther or not you can find a nice solution to them:

1) Dodging blows is a big part of the game. With such a system, units like fencers, assassins, saurians and many more would become virtually useless. Watching what terrain you place you unit on would serve no purpose anymore. You have to find something to replace this. The easy answer could be "replace the chance to hit/dodge with a damage boosting/nerfing %", but I personnally feel it would interfere with resistances and be less flavourful. And wouldn't it make units like Heavy Infantrymen less flavourfull, too, and grossly equivalent to fencers or spearmen? Why have more resistances if terrain defense is gonna negate it anyway?

2) Dodging is so important that there are "anti-dodgers", which would become useless with your system. I'm thinking about mages, for instance. Why recruit a 20 gold mage if you can have a thougher 14 gold bowman with about the same damage output, and both will lend all their strikes? Note that this is highly dependant on what you do with problem 1.

3) Possibly the hardest case to solve: hit-dependant weapon specials (such as slow and poison). With such a system, they would be inflicted 100% of the time. Making that sole parameter dependant on a chance to hit based on terrain defense feels UNKISS and out of place in a deterministic optic. This one is the only one I have really no idea how to solve.
i could upload such an era in 1-2h based on my no Luck-mode (which is based on the works of pauxlo) i implemented in SXRPG-ADDON

dixie mentioned the problems.

to 1)+2)
i can only say that these are no REAL problems, since in such an era units would always deal the AVERAGE damage, so units would get their exspected, mathematical calculated, average damage

a fencer is exspected to get an average damage also in "luck-wesnoth", his strengh is not only his doging, but also his speed and skirmishing ability

mages still have their uses when it comes to rely on their FIRE-damage type


3)
slow+poison
weapons with these these specials may be made still random. doesnt feel too unkiss imho.
also the poisioning and slowing units doesnt deal to much damage, so its ok to have some luck-swings here.



as said, making such a "no luck" era would be pretty much possible ;)
Last edited by Mabuse on August 2nd, 2011, 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mabuse
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Re: Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

Post by Mabuse » August 1st, 2011, 11:58 pm

NoLuckEra (with default+age of Heroes era) is on add on server.
by using this era you will set random cth to OFF
(except slow and poison weapons)
other random stuff like traits remain randomized

http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=34598

(the wml is also able to handle (some) non default cth specials, so that you might use it also with other eras (you need to copy the relevant wml into them))
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

SKAcz
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Re: Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

Post by SKAcz » August 2nd, 2011, 6:37 am

Sounds nice, thanks a lot !
We will try it with chessplayers :)

Aidoneus
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Re: Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

Post by Aidoneus » August 5th, 2011, 1:20 pm

What would be required to use No Luck Era with the mainline campaigns?

Aidoneus
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Re: Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

Post by Aidoneus » August 5th, 2011, 3:38 pm

Is there a thread somewhere for No Luck Era? Instead of getting reduced damage, I still hit with random frequency. Am I missing something obvious, like a setting somewhere?

Velensk
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Re: Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

Post by Velensk » August 5th, 2011, 4:02 pm

In multiplayer development.

Specials with specials like poison/slow still operate randomly.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

Aidoneus
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Re: Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

Post by Aidoneus » August 5th, 2011, 4:20 pm

Velensk: I need to give you some karma...wait, that's a different forum.

Noy
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Re: Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

Post by Noy » August 9th, 2011, 8:53 pm

SKAcz wrote: I hope this idea could help make bridge from chess (no random, no hiden info strategy turnbased game played in some time control) to wesnoth (no random, hiden info strategy turnbased game) removing bad advertisement that wesnoth is random game for childs with lucky, because then can offer deterministic (but as far more complex) strategy game than chess is.
Only someone who actually is NOT familiar with the genre would suggest that having randomness does not make it a strategy game. Almost every single serious strategy games, including hardcore wargames use randomness to determine combat outcomes. Thats just the reality. Also, Chess really isn't a strategy game, its more considered a logic game.

You might consider reading this post I wrote three years ago.

http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... 83#p298283
I suspect having one foot in the past is the best way to understand the present.

Don Hewitt.

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