Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

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Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

Post by SKAcz » May 10th, 2011, 10:39 am

Hi,
after several years I know Wesnoth, I have to say is definitelly best PC strategy multiplayer game with hiden information incorporated. The possibility of playing it on lokal pc hotseat, network, internet and with various map size and time controls like professional chess are played is famous. Yeah here are few but minors details that could be improved but still its superior. All other non-chess turnbased games I know missing something from this.
But here is one small but very important parametr that missing on the way between chess and wesnoth :
set the random ON/OFF !
Everybody who played some turnbased strategy game know that is difference between "variability" and "unpredictable","too random","chaotic","lucky/unlucky extrem".
It is never easy to design game rules environment such way to allow put inside random to create only variability and not unpredictible chaos or lucky/unlucky terms.
I dont wish discuss here if in wesnoth is random creating mostly only variability or mostly only unpredictable chaos, true is it will be somewhere among (dont missinterpet like middle, cos it depends how u define the borders and also its not easy to analyze and also depends on kind of games u playing).
What i wish offer is to forever delete to be possible sentences from chessplayers playing wesnoth like "I lost because i always in important moment of game have bad luck and critical unit didnt fight and make damage as much as i needed and/or opponets made unpredictible high damage".

What about add into wesnoth parametr of Random On/Off or simply set some level of random.
Random off its easy here more ways how to do it.
First way : if random off, then all units hits always they can (do not care if some race will be unbalanced, chessplayers can simply take same race on both sides, like thay do in chess).
This first way is enough to chessplayers could enjoy all wesnoth improvements compared to chess : various map size, incorporated hiden information (u dont see where opponents units are, u can also have hiden also all map), various parts of day and terrain bonuses etc.... And they can feel wesnoth like something better, something what is far, using virtual reality computer offers, than chess ever can !

Of course here are also better ways.

Second way : Random is replaced by frequency.
every unit will have something like own "lucky_stack", and when random off,
this stack will works simply like periodic line of luck/unluck. For example this way (I am sure developers will find many ways and some very easy to implement) Lucky_stack is 0 at the start. If unit has 20% to hit, and if in lucky_stack is atleast 100-20, it hits and lucky_stack -= (100-20), if is lucky_stack < 20 then units fails and lucky_stack += 20. This way every player can easy predict when units will hit and when not and never can happen that units with probability 20% will hit in important moment 3x in a row, but will in every 5. try. Lucky_stack for unit which we can say made only same attack of 20% probabilty will be 0,20,40,60,80,0,20,40,60,80,0 so will hit when lucky stack is 80 always only. Sure can be easy combined with other atacks, events of unit, no problem, still we replacing all by predictable frequency.

I hope this idea could help make bridge from chess (no random, no hiden info strategy turnbased game played in some time control) to wesnoth (no random, hiden info strategy turnbased game) removing bad advertisement that wesnoth is random game for childs with lucky, because then can offer deterministic (but as far more complex) strategy game than chess is. And of course who wish more random lets is open space in searching border where random from variability makes roulette ...

Dont forget : here i a lot of chessplayers ...
Last edited by Gambit on May 10th, 2011, 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

Post by Gambit » May 10th, 2011, 12:09 pm

First you need to read our Posting Guidelines.
Then you should check out Luck in Wesnoth: A rationale

Then it'd be neat if you'd further explain why any game with random numbers in it is instantly a "random game for childs with lucky" because I really didn't understand that part.

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Re: Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

Post by Caphriel » May 10th, 2011, 1:12 pm

The full context is "bad advertisement that wesnoth is random game for childs with lucky"
I think he was saying that some people dismiss Wesnoth's potential as a strategy game because it involves randomness (which is obviously illogical, but some people do it) and that this presumption that it is a random game that only immature children who like depending on luck would enjoy prevents them from trying the game.

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Re: Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

Post by Madlok » May 10th, 2011, 1:46 pm

Bleh, without randomness and hidden informations strategies become just a mathematical problems.
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Re: Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

Post by SKAcz » May 10th, 2011, 3:39 pm

Re Madlock : even without random as roulette efect is here always "random" from view of player due to hiden information, but its big difference, this kind of random cannot be attacked that influence the game unexpected way.

What i am saying is that due to random the potential of wesnoth like strategy games with incorporated hiden information is decreased a level from view of advertisemnt among strategy players like chessplayers who make top players among of symbolic games. But if is vision of developers to not have ambition compete with chess, like had other turnbased strategy games before (which had lack of other features wesnoth offer) - well then its really bad, especially when such an option implementing is not so hard. I got feeling when time controls was added into game, that wesnoth developers see the potential which professionally made game can have. Well maybe i was wrong and wesnoth is one from many childs games only which chessplayers will refuse because random is not used only for variability but also for roulette effect (nothing against roulette efect, even poker is nice game, but its far away to compete also with chess).

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Re: Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

Post by Madlok » May 10th, 2011, 4:40 pm

Welll, I think that the reduction of randomness is possible to do on this engine as an addon. Even if it can not be completely eliminated, it is possible to reduce to almost negligible level.
It must be an addon, not on/off option. Most of the Eras are adapted to the randomness. For example: the effect of poison and slowing are binary (0/1) values. If they will always hit then the whole balance will change.
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Re: Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

Post by monochromatic » May 10th, 2011, 5:16 pm

New acronym: WINC. 'Nuff said.

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Re: Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

Post by pauxlo » May 10th, 2011, 5:17 pm

You might want to have a look at the "Experimental Corner" forum, which was created to do just such things which would not be accepted into mainline Wesnoth. The release also contains a less-luck version, which lets terrain not change the hit chance, but the damage dealt. (It still has randomness for recruitment traits, I think.) There are also mixed versions between "no luck" and "normal luck", IIRC.

(Sorry, no links here, since I didn't find the right thread.)

Also, there is a less-luck era doing the same on the 1.6 addon server by zookeeper, which might be portable to 1.8 (or 1.9) with some work.

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Re: Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

Post by Sgt. Groovy » May 10th, 2011, 6:21 pm

Would you tell backgammon players they should remove the effect of dice from the game to make it more friendly to chess players? Would you tell poker players they should have the deck in a prearranged order and keep all cards visible to make it more friendly to chess players?

Wesnoth is game for people who like the element of unpredictability and unknown in a game. Those who don't like it a free to play something else or make their own game.
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Re: Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

Post by tekelili » May 10th, 2011, 8:05 pm

Sgt. Groovy wrote:Would you tell backgammon players they should remove the effect of dice from the game to make it more friendly to chess players? Would you tell poker players they should have the deck in a prearranged order and keep all cards visible to make it more friendly to chess players?
Totally agree. And just say that some top level chess players have becomed professional poker players attracted by money, but they are very good poker players because poker is also an strategic game. Randomess doesnt mean in anyway that a game involves less strategy.

For lot of people is very hard accept that in poker you can do the best move and lose money. Do the worst move and become rich. Key is understand "you were wining money" when did the right move, and "you were losing money" when you did the wrong move. Wesnoth works the same way, "you were wining game" by doing right moves, no matter if that time happens you lose due to rng. You will win more games than lose doing that.

In fact randomess add more strategy to game, bring issues as risk managament: An acceptable risk vs a more skilled oponent becomed a wrong move vs a (you know it) very worse player than you. Or the amount of redudancy you will use in your lines and attacks to manage very low chance outcomes.
Be aware English is not my first language and I could have explained bad myself using wrong or just invented words.
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Re: Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

Post by SKAcz » May 11th, 2011, 6:24 am

Would you tell backgammon players they should remove the effect of dice from the game to make it more friendly to chess players?
Well this is exact way i wanted to not be my idea misinterpreted. I dont wish force anybody who like casino and cannot live without random of unpredictible level to leave it, no no no,
I wish that who dont like undeterministic events (like is a lot of chessplayers - its why they still playing chess even with in last years annoying huge opening theory - because here is no other serious alternative which dont depends on luck and offer deterministic periodic events instead : plus new opportunity of by computer counted physics of some rules environment, not only terrain bonuses but also like automatic healing, day parts, etc. ....) to join wesnoth for longer time.

The goal is this : have game with such a 1 more parameter :

Randomness
0<----------------------------------------------------------------------->100
OFF - random events are replaced by periodical events ON - random numbers
(solution based on luck_stack) (like in roulette,poker etc, present solution)


The difference is simply if off then attacks of units with 33% probability and randomness on periodical level will be 0,0,1,0,0,1,0,0,1 ... but in true random like in present unpredictible.
Sure here can be also -1<--------------------------------
what can mean : lucky always for example, so then any % will lose the sense .... - but this is only the emergency solution.

And now with such a parametr (repeating for fanatics of random events which doubts that even has sense to start thinking about it) every chessplayer (who takes chess as serious game where no random events are and all can be predicted as far as he is able and thinked about by his brain, simply who better is who win, no "random trick" can make from his hard created positional advantage the loss) can create some wesnoth game and set off all randomness (maybe even shroud and fog of war) on some small map and try fantastic maneuvers which this game offer together with by computer automatically managed environment of game which he never enjoyed in chess.

So why not allow this parameter ?
(its only option added, nothing change, only offer more, so its on way to be wesnoth grat platform for strategy players - thats the vision right ?)
We alowing to play without shroud, without fog of war, why not without unpredictible random events ?
Why not randomness level ? Its against what part of wesnoth development and advertisement, comunity character vision ?

Unpredictible events which makes from view of advertisement game among chessplayers from wesnoth only one from many games which is based on luck also.
Among such players which dont like play 1 or more hours battle to find that all will determine that in critical moment unith with 20% probability simply got luck and did hit 3 from 5 attacks or something like such and ending wesnoth in category described by words "thats such a funny game with big random influence designed for who like to have chance win on random luck, something like poker a bit, not strategy really like chess is serious".
If You wish get many chessplayers into game, you have to be sure they will not dismiss Wesnoth's potential as a strategy game because it involves randomness yeah - dont give them opportunity to dismiss it, to be the "unlucky peoples who lost game often on random number", show them that You can beat them even without random nuber due to famous complexity of strategy game - and You get their attention and maybe You get many of them forever!
Yeah even chessplayers sometimes playing poker, but it donts means every or even significant number of chessplayers playing poker often ! So for fanatics which attacking this post by emphasizing role of unpredictible nondeterministic (objective, if u have all infos, because even in deterministic game can have so much factors that will be from view of player unpredictible - the fog of war is the bigger from it because its same way like random numbers something player canot predict exactly. But simmilar effect do also the insane complexity of possible number of moves which cannot be calculated and only guessed, and i dont mean humans only (true is chess is solved so good for computers only because of decades work on theory, its the most explored board game and only this allowed computers to get on level where are able beat best humans), we all knows how weak computers are in wesnoth, just make any nonstandard map and AI always playing second role if in game are experienced players (often used to be chessplayers also)!) random level as implemented now, here is message they will understand i hope : this adding of parameter will not affect actual situation but will make possible game be taken seriously by peoples used to play chess, and some will later maybe play also with other random levels,
more peoples playing wesnoth cannot hurt nobody, less will lead that potential will be used by other games than wesnoth - here is a lot of chessplayers, who play favourite strategy game the whole life to enjoy experience and strong opponents they knows years ... its only detail which can join part of big chess worlds comunity to wesnoth world maybe ... isnt it worthy of try ? Thats the final question !
Wesnoth For Chessplayers with Randomness Off as more complex strategy game than chess - Yes or No ?
Will be wesnoth compete with top strategic games , even with chess, or will be only the "childs", the "one from many with some missing features" game ?

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Re: Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

Post by tekelili » May 11th, 2011, 7:48 am

I find interesting your point of view and dont feel myself ofended in any way besides I am totally disagree. I hope neither offend you :)

I think you dont understand how this game works. Chess was designed to be played with full information and determist outcomes, wesnoth no. Currently in wesnoth you can do the next reasoning:

"If I put my archer in that forest to block acces to my village, my oponent has 83 ctk on him. If he kills him, I think he will just cover spot, I wont be able to retaliate in a meaningfull way and he will just retreat with my archer dead as bounty. BUT, he has a 17% of fail kill, and I think I can position my army to punish him in a way if that happens, that will be victory for me. As I think just lose an archer wont change too much my chances lose/win this game, then I can put him my archer on that forest and cover my village"
This kind of moves is what make wesnoth possible to be played. 83% ctk on my archer in a determist enverioment, problably means 100%. And 100% means I cant put my archer on that forest. The amount of movements that would be neglected in a determinist enveiroiment would make wesnoth impossible of be taken seriously as an strategic game. Would be more like a boring tic-tac-toe.

Edit: And I am also both a chess player and poker player. And randomess in poker is not a lack in its strategic value, is a game feature design totally necessary. Or can you imagine a game where players bets for different outcomes in a determinist enverioment?
Be aware English is not my first language and I could have explained bad myself using wrong or just invented words.
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Re: Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

Post by SKAcz » May 11th, 2011, 9:31 am

Just shortly :
1. I played many games including poker and I dont wish here discussing adding something to poker, cos thats an easy way , cos poker has easy rules and no computer assistance is required, no parameter (but also there is possible make game more interresting and less stressing, for example if u have n peoples and dont wish other sitting after one get out when had to get all in in 70:30 situation and lost game, for example we did set that u can play maximal half Your all in, and game was this way softened a bit and sitting when others stil playing decreased).
2. I dont wish discuss here how much games who played from us and how good is, sure we can make here tournament we can say in blitz chess, blitz wesnoth, bughouse chess, slow wesnoth, poker in many variants etc. Right answer from You should be what response from chessplayers you have ...

So lets focus to the only important you said to topic :
"The amount of movements that would be neglected in a determinist enveiroiment would make wesnoth impossible of be taken seriously as an strategic game. Would be more like a boring tic-tac-toe."

So You saying : on every map with every setting of starting moneys, exp, time control etc. it will be boring game like tic-tac-toe (means 3x3 solved game right, no game on infinite paper where no winning strategy was published yet exactly) or ... chess ... where no random events are ?
Ok, if You say this can You proove it ? How much chessplayers will feel it like boring if there will be luck_stack solution instead of random numbers and how much will feel boring that in important part of game has to (poker temrs said) go all in into situation where have 70:30 but still losing - its why they dont play poker, or taking pokwer as not same cathegory of game as chess atleast to be interesting for them more than occasionaly fun. Cos I writing this idea based on experience and on arguments thats sounds logical. I could understand random fanatics if I try to remove random from game - but I wish not, I only offer to add parameter ? So You are who wish dedacto remove this option (not added yet) from the game, I still dont understand why ? Where You have prove the game played with such parameter will be boring for everybody elese than You ? It looks same way like if somebody says me "playing game where match everybody everybody is boring to me, i prefer 1 vs 1 or teams" or "playing with exp of 30% is too random" etc. etc.
Well You saying You cannot imagine wesnoth can be played replacing random events by more or less periodic events, so its boring, because You cannot imagine it ? Well no wonder that tic-tac-toe on infinite space and maybe with some starting positions prearranged is boring for You, but still peoples playing it. Same way like slow chess is damn hell boring for everybody who just dont wish exact calculate 5 or 10 moves ahead ... or just dont have time for it, but it doesnt means its boring in general.
Well what its boring as term, how to proove it ?? I have no idea but I have idea (which removing nothing from actual situations, but offer react on what is bad from chess-like game view , which btw. can be wesnoth played like, cos has famous maneuvers possibilities if You use strategic enough rich maps) how to add one more dimension to wesnoth relatively easy.
So I am curious why You are against so strongly ?

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Re: Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

Post by SKAcz » May 11th, 2011, 9:51 am

The most important question for "boring" term is maybe this :
for You game in which who reached 70% vs 30% resources and still can lose even if plays good, just because of random number is strategy game, but game like chess is boring ok ?
Cos You saying that wesnoth where we replacing 66% by that every 2 from 3 attacks are successful will be boring wesnoth right because You cannot imagine map and settings in standard where You will have enough of possible moves leading to interresting game ? Cos is problem with forests ? So lets will be less forests on map ... I still dont see any proove that such game will be boring, I see this game can have many moves and same way like in chess who will reach advantage can realize it and no random poker "all in" 70:30 or 80:20 will lose every 4 or 5. game, but will win every such game.

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Re: Wesnoth for chessplayers - with parameter Random Set Off

Post by Caphriel » May 11th, 2011, 1:32 pm

Wesnoth cannot be all things to all people. Randomness is an integral part of the game design. Adding options to reduce randomness has been discussed before many times. This wiki page would be a good place to start, but you can also search the forum for things like "less luck" and "deterministic." Your request has already been done.

However, this will never be mainline in Wesnoth. Wesnoth without randomness may be an interesting game, but it wouldn't be Wesnoth. You've reached some arbitrary conclusion that some gamers, whom you call "chessplayers" won't play Wesnoth because it's nondeterministic. My question for you is, what's wrong with that?

You've made no compelling argument in favor of your position. Your strongest arguments is "it would make Wesnoth appeal to more players" but that's not convincing at all. Why should Wesnoth try to appeal to people who don't like its fundamental design?
Its against what part of wesnoth development and advertisement, comunity character vision ?
Yes. Let me find you some links. For starters, read Dave's essay on the subject. The conclusion is "In summary, luck is an important and crucial part of Wesnoth. It is certainly not some dial that can be scaled back a little without critically affecting gameplay. Players should remember something: Wesnoth is not a typical game for its genre, nor do we intend for it to become one." Dave is the lead developer.
Last edited by Caphriel on May 11th, 2011, 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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