TBS games with ranged units and area of effect spells

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rrenaud
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TBS games with ranged units and area of effect spells

Post by rrenaud » March 12th, 2007, 6:40 pm

First, let me say that I love wesnoth.

Are there any quality open source TBS games with honest ranged units and area of effect spells? What about just TBS games in general? Is it that hard to do right? Is it just KISS that made wesnoth have the "ranged attacks must be adjacent feature?"

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Post by Imp » March 12th, 2007, 8:04 pm

I remember a few friends being involved in a free clone of Tactics Ogre a while back. Not sure if that was open source, though.

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Re: TBS games with ranged units and area of effect spells

Post by Eleazar » March 12th, 2007, 10:52 pm

rrenaud wrote:Is it just KISS that made wesnoth have the "ranged attacks must be adjacent feature?"
In particular it made the AI much easier to do. It also simplified the interface somewhat.
Feel free to PM me if you start a new terrain oriented thread. It's easy for me to miss them among all the other art threads.
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Re: TBS games with ranged units and area of effect spells

Post by Dave » March 13th, 2007, 1:19 am

rrenaud wrote:Is it that hard to do right? Is it just KISS that made wesnoth have the "ranged attacks must be adjacent feature?"
It's not that hard to do right. It's not a KISS thing to only have adjacent attacks.

It's just the style of Wesnoth. Wesnoth is not the One True Style for a good game. It just has its own unique style and design, and that includes only adjacent attacks.

We don't think that ranged attacks are a bad idea or fundamentally flawed or so forth. We just decided not to put them in Wesnoth.

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Post by Jetrel » March 15th, 2007, 2:39 am

Dave of course can corroborate this better than I can, but there are some major design similarities, across the board, between wesnoth, and "Civilization", whether intentional or not.

• The lazy-updating, tile-based graphics engine.
• The scale of map terrain, and the varieties of them (hills, mountains), even the inclusion of villages.
• Moving one unit at a time, rather than all units at once.
• Units having tile-based movement, and a specified number of moves which get used at different rates in different terrains.
• Units having terrain-based defense, depending only on the receiver's skill in the ground they're in.
• Units being able to attack only adjacent tiles, even if they're attacking with bows, guns, or other missile weapons.
• Zone of Control functions very, very similarly.


There are certainly differences between the two, but, so long as you strip out the "building/tech" component of civilization, the core mechanics, especially of moving and fighting, are eerily similar.

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Post by waterd103 » March 20th, 2007, 10:12 am

yes i'm looking for the same too, i've looking for a good game for a long time and wesnoth give me graphically what i expect from a game, a nice detailed graphics, 2d not overcomplicated, the graphics animations, etc is all amazing to me, but the lack of actual ranged units and AOE Effects, made me cry :( it would be really good if some dev team come around to use this fantastic engine to create such game.

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Post by La_vie_en_Wose » March 20th, 2007, 10:49 am

waterd103 wrote:yes i'm looking for the same too, i've looking for a good game for a long time and wesnoth give me graphically what i expect from a game, a nice detailed graphics, 2d not overcomplicated, the graphics animations, etc is all amazing to me, but the lack of actual ranged units and AOE Effects, made me cry :( it would be really good if some dev team come around to use this fantastic engine to create such game.
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Post by LezzerLord » March 20th, 2007, 4:05 pm

You should try out LOL Land of Legends.
I dont remember where you download it, but it has exactly as u want.

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Post by waterd103 » March 20th, 2007, 8:42 pm

i've played LOL and 1) the graphics and animations doesn't have the beauty of wesnoth, 2) it's not open source

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Post by Eleazar » March 20th, 2007, 8:57 pm

Jetryl wrote: • The lazy-updating, tile-based graphics engine.
• Moving one unit at a time, rather than all units at once.
• Units having tile-based movement, and a specified number of moves which get used at different rates in different terrains.
• Zone of Control functions very, very similarly.
I believe most of the "similar" features you've noted are rather common in the 2D Turn-Based-Strategy game genera. I mean how many radically different implementations of Zoc can you think of for a TBS tile-based game? I would guess than most old-school TBSs would share most of these similarities.
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Post by irrevenant » March 20th, 2007, 9:31 pm

Eleazar wrote:
Jetryl wrote: • The lazy-updating, tile-based graphics engine.
• Moving one unit at a time, rather than all units at once.
• Units having tile-based movement, and a specified number of moves which get used at different rates in different terrains.
• Zone of Control functions very, very similarly.
I believe most of the "similar" features you've noted are rather common in the 2D Turn-Based-Strategy game genera. I mean how many radically different implementations of Zoc can you think of for a TBS tile-based game? I would guess than most old-school TBSs would share most of these similarities.
I'm not sure how you would have a TBS where you moved multiple units simultaneously.

TBS does seem kind of hung up on hexes and tile-based engines though. For years physical wargames have had the concept of moving a specific distance rather than a fixed number of squares/hexes/whatever. I can't imagine it'd be too hard to implement in a TBS. The old 'drag out a line that turns red from the point where you're out of range interface should do nicely.

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Post by waterd103 » March 21st, 2007, 4:20 am

I really like the simplicity of Wesnoth, as mentioned LOL is simple and alike wesnoth.
But i would like more complexity on the things units can do on the battlefield.

For people who remember Dark legions of silicon knights was an example of what i'm talking about in matter of units . The problem with that game where two, you didn't have reasons to fight the map (wich made the game stupid)you couldn't recruit units and the fighting system was about skill.
two units i found particulary intersting in that game where the fire elemental, wich you could send insidea a group of units and explode itself causing huge damage.
Adn the ice wizard that can frost and keep paralyzed units from long distnace.
if i could modify wesnoth i would add ranged units [real ranged] to obvusly just one hex more (there could be the special units that can two hex more but that would be more the exception than the rule).
Add AOE effects
Add expendable special skills to units.
And that is!
I of course know that the wesnoth team is not interested, but i'm interested in knowing how hard would be it to be done with the engine is provided. Maybe i could assamble a team to do it, but it deppends on how hard it is, i personally know nothing about coding.

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Post by Dave » March 21st, 2007, 4:39 pm

waterd103 wrote:it would be really good if some dev team come around to use this fantastic engine to create such game.
Well, go do it then! In the Open Source world, if you want something done, you usually have to do it yourself!

Unless you have a spare couple of hundred grand lying around, then you could pay me to spend a year or two doing it! ;)

David
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Post by Betherzen » March 24th, 2007, 9:29 am

@ irrevenant
"I'm not sure how you would have a TBS where you moved multiple units simultaneously"

As you do it in Civ3. The movement can end on one of your units, so they become a stack. You can choose then if to move units from stack one by one in any direction you want, or move all stack at a time, same direction. Helps in 2 ways:
1. your units don't get blocked by themselves in the way
2. when you want to send many units to a target/area, you just stack them and sent them there.
This, however, changes gameplay, since when the stack is attacked,it will be always a fresh unit to take the next attack, another for the next and so on, and the wounded units won;t fight unless the enemies are too many and all the units in your stack get wounded. Then , the on with most hp left will go first, and the one with less hp will be the last defender.
:) with a healer in the stack, this formation would be invincible unless the enemy comes with a double size stack .
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Post by Dave » March 24th, 2007, 2:49 pm

Betherzen wrote: As you do it in Civ3. The movement can end on one of your units, so they become a stack.
I think the more understandable way of expressing this is that Civ3 allows stacking of units on a tile, but Wesnoth doesn't.

However, even then moving multiple units at once is simply a convenience and no different to moving the units one at a time as far as gameplay goes.

Civilization 1 also allows stacking of units, it just doesn't have the convenience of moving the entire stack as one.

David
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