Proposal for further advancements after max-level

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Is this a good idea?

Yes!
30
75%
No!
8
20%
It won't make that much difference....
2
5%
 
Total votes: 40

Dave
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Proposal for further advancements after max-level

Post by Dave »

Lots of people seem to want the possibility to advance further after the maximum level. One way of doing this is increasing hitpoints and/or damage for every n xp after max-levelling.

This is a feasible way to do it, but I think there is a more interesting way to do it.

Max levelled units would have specifications of advancement options in their unit file. These advancement options would be identical in format to [traits] found in game.cfg.

That is, one could specify as an advancement option for a Paladin that they obtain the 'cures' ability. One could specify for a Sharpshooter that they get +1 damage for ranged attacks. One could perhaps specify for an Avenger the 'swimming' advancement to make them move faster on water.

When the necessary experienced is gained for a unit, the player is shown the advancement options and chooses one.

Advancement options may have specifications on how many times the player may choose them -- for instance, a +5hp option may be choosable up to three times, while a 'quickening' +1 movement ability is likely to be choosable only once.

This would put a little more burden on unit creation, but I think it would be rewarding in that it would allow players to customize their units more, rather than becoming bored with units when they max-level.

Also, to compensate for the more powerful units this would allow, we may go through and make 2nd and 3rd level units less powerful in general than 1st level units.

Also, when a max-level unit advances, it would NOT get healing, as a unit does when it advances a level normally.

If we wanted, we could even consider making it longer for units to get to their max level by making it so that e.g. an Elvish Fighter has to go through two level-ups where it gets slightly better abilities before it gets to advance to an Elvish Hero or Captain.

Thoughts?

David
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Kamahawk
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Post by Kamahawk »

This is a good idea, because you can prevent things like a troll getting an extra attack wich would make it verry stong, while and extra attack for an avenger would be much less powerfull.
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Dave
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Post by Dave »

Kamahawk wrote:This is a good idea, because you can prevent things like a troll getting an extra attack wich would make it verry stong, while and extra attack for an avenger would be much less powerfull.
Precisely.

Also, we could even make it possible that you could only get a certain advancement option after you've been through some other advancements.

E.g. the extra attack for an Avenger might only show up after they have received two other advancements.

David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming

Dobob
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Post by Dobob »

That would be very nice. But I have two questions about it :

1- Will it be displayed like traits or in a menu somewhere ? If it's to be like traits, each unit could only get a limited number of them to not clutter the unit display.

2- Will units that go to higher levels (great mage) will have less of these than those who block earlier (walking corpse, bat, outrider,...) ?

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Post by Dave »

Dobob wrote: 1- Will it be displayed like traits or in a menu somewhere ? If it's to be like traits, each unit could only get a limited number of them to not clutter the unit display.
I'm not sure if it'll be displayed or not. Certainly being able to display an arbitrary number of them could be a problem.
Dobob wrote: 2- Will units that go to higher levels (great mage) will have less of these than those who block earlier (walking corpse, bat, outrider,...) ?
Possibly. Different units will be looked at individually. Some units will be intended not to have much advancement potential.

David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming

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turin
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Post by turin »

I don't think that highly advanced units should get better...they are good enough already.

Also, a unit should not have to go through more levels than it already does to get to its final form (unless you are making the final form more powerful)
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fmunoz
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Post by fmunoz »

I vote no, my choice will be only minor advancement, like +2hp, +2hp and +1 damage (maybe selectable or in all attacks) at 125/250/500 xp. Just a bit but not too much.
And No special skills, no healing.

Ave
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Post by Ave »

While i like getting new skills and traits, i guess it would ruin balance. It would require a complete rebalancing. How would the program select the trait on level up of computer controlled units? I think a simple +3 hp/+1 damage hardwired would be enough.

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Post by miyo »

Completely skills based -> another game. We can start working on that after Wesnoth is taken where we want it.

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Christophe33
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Post by Christophe33 »

I'm certainly in favor of a unit gaining improvements after reaching max level (anybody surprised by that? :)) and of a smoother increase in power while levelling, resulting maybe into additionnal intermediate level. I that option there should be No healing (or only partial as it was discussed elsewhere) when levelling.
Example the elfish fighter:
Transition in 1 time (present case) Xp38 HP 32 melee 5-4/range 3-3 --->
Elvish Hero HP 48 melee 8-4/range 6-3
Transition in two time Xp20---> Elvish Bravado (just a name) HP 40 melee 7-4/range 4-3--->Xp20 (25?) to a lvl3 Elvish Hero. I would actually not mind a higher XP requirement as a cost for intermediate levels.
While the gain of specific "traits" sounds interesting, it might leads to unforeseen problems as mentioned. The special" traits" should be limited in number (no more than a single choice between two traits) and in the Xp requirement (more than 500 xp). Meanwhile some other bonus could be considered beside the basic Hp/damage one.
One of the thing I have played with (I made for myself lvl4 and lvl5 levels upgrade for some units to test the idea) was adding some alternate weapon/attack.
It sounds reasonnable than up[on gaining experience a unit would get a wider range of weapon. The secundary weapons tend to be less powerfull than the primary (but could get their own damage bonus later) but usefull in some cases.
Example: I gave the Elfish champion a secundary mace melee attack with damage of 10-4 (against 15-4 for the sword) then 13-4 at level 5.
Other alternate is to give as alternate the use the same weapon in different way like "fast sword attack" damage 9-6 (usefull when you want to get more chances to hit a weak target with a low chance of success) or "killer blow" 25-2...
So you could end up with the option:
sword 15-4 (if not improved)
mace (impact) 10-4
sword killer blow 25-2
Note that all these options upon levelling hadn't increased the HP or total damage of the unit even though I think this should happen too.
Some units without range weapon could get one (after all it is done for quite a bunch of level 3 units like the general and orc leader).
As Miyo mentioned, bringing in a bunch of "traits" choices(instead of a single one) might lead toward a skilled based game (I like skill based game and would love to see one developped). Whether or not it is a problem remains to be determine, but I'm rather against doing such extensive changes .
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miyo
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Post by miyo »

Low xp requirements for advancement just encourage exploiting level healing. If there are going to be more levels it should still require good amount of xp to advance (sure that will make reaching highest level harder).

- Miyo

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Post by miyo »

Christophe33 wrote:One of the thing I have played with (I made for myself lvl4 and lvl5 levels upgrade for some units to test the idea) was adding some alternate weapon/attack.
So you would just need to get high level units to do all type of damage. I don't like it. If you want to do different type of damage you use different unit.
Christophe33 wrote:It sounds reasonnable than up[on gaining experience a unit would get a wider range of weapon.
The secundary weapons tend to be less powerfull than the primary (but could get their own damage bonus later) but usefull in some cases.
Maybe for dwarves (axe + mace + etc) but I don't see this e.g. for elves.
Christophe33 wrote:Example: I gave the Elfish champion a secundary mace melee attack with damage of 10-4 (against 15-4 for the sword) then 13-4 at level 5.
Bandits have clubs and maces, dwarves might have them, heavy infantry has them... but not elves.
Christophe33 wrote:Other alternate is to give as alternate the use the same weapon in different way like "fast sword attack" damage 9-6 (usefull when you want to get more chances to hit a weak target with a low chance of success) or "killer blow" 25-2...
Where do I need charging anymore? One way would be giving e.g. Sharpshooter marksman ranged attack and non-marksman ranged attack (a bit less damage, more attacks). But why would Marksman not get this also? Currently selecting between melee/ranged is very easy - this would make it "harder"

Keep it simple.
Christophe33 wrote:As Miyo mentioned, bringing in a bunch of "traits" choices(instead of a single one) might lead toward a skilled based game (I like skill based game and would love to see one developped). Whether or not it is a problem remains to be determine, but I'm rather against doing such extensive changes .
I would also like skills based game, but that game is not Wesnoth.

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turin
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Post by turin »

I think that leveling up is the only way that a unit should get better (and picking up items). Any other way encourages using only the most powerful units that are already advanced, and not advancing more lowerlevel units. Also, what is the reasoning behind having a smooth transition? if you want a smooth transition, there should be no levels, each unit would just get a small bonus for every xp gained, like "every 5 xp, gain 1 hp, every 15 xp, gain 1 damage." this is similar to how the heros advance in HoMM3. (note that i am not in favor of this proposition. it simply seems to be the best way to have a smooth transition).
I am in favor of retaining advance heal, because if there are only a few levels, it will be used sparingly. the game is not supposed to be realistic, it is supposed to be fun, and i do not like it when after i advance a unit it gets slaughtered because it has too little HP.
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Christophe33
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Post by Christophe33 »

An alternate to givinga new special trait when gaining experience would be to give a unit an enhancement of one of the trait it alreaddy has. It will answer the problem of choice and might be acceptable for people afraid of the consequence of getting too many traits.
For example the loyal trait could be enhanced to reduce the cost of the unit further by 1 gold (usefull if the new version of loyality is implemented) .
resilient could give an additional boost of HP (like 7 HP), reduced poison damage by 1/2 or reduced damage from a type of weapon by 1.
Intelligent trait: First, would it also work to reduce the Xp requirement by 20% for additional experience gain? I would recomend not too but it depends of how the bonus from experience are implemented.
enhanced bonus for intelligence could be "magic resistance", sensing "invisible" units at 2 hex distance instead of by contact.
Enhancement of quick could be a cahnce to hit first when attacked (like 20% , ability to move on the turn the unit is recalled.
enhancement of strong could be a the option of a "power attack": 1/2 the number of attack but with twice the damage, like 30-2 instead of 15-4.
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quartex
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Post by quartex »

I like the idea of a having variety of minor skills a unit can get after level 3, it would let you customize the unit. It reminds me of epic level characters in D&D, after they reach level 20, they get a wide variety of abilities to choose from. One one hand being able to choose from various abilities sounds great.


But would we remove the level cap altogether? Wouldn't that make high level units even more powerful, when compared to lower level units? Sure, i love the idea of having new exciting abilities, but I guess I'd rather see us flesh out the rest of the units for races like the loyalists, and undead rather than try to create a whole new set of abilities for super-powerful level 4+ units. And when people start talking about skill trees, i start thinking of Diablo II or HOMM, which is all too complex.

I think that as Wesnoth nears completion, and we work on finishing the game, we need to prioritize the many good ideas and features we already want to implement, rather than try to add too many more. I'm not saying we should lock-down the game, and certainly it is going to change a lot in the future, but limiting unit's to level 3 or 4, is a good way of making sure that we actually finish most of the races/sides in this century. Otherwise I could just see it spiraling out of control.

The last third of a game is always the hardest too do, you get tired of programming, or drawing artwork, of designing levels. Luckily we have lots of great talent and people eager to help. But while it's always more fun to day-dream new features, I'm looking forward to making wesnoth great within the confines we have already set for the game.

In short, advanced level units sounds cool at first, but I think trying to outline and balance a number of skills would not only take too long, it would also make high level units even more powerful than they already are and upset the balance of the game. Wesnoth isn't a game where 1 hero can massacre an entire army, level 1 units can still gang up on a high levelk unit with a decent chance of success, and I think limits units to level 3 or 4 is a good way to make later missions in the cmapaign continue to be a challenge.


Edit: But I suppose if later levels only gave minor perks, it could work if they don't become uber-powerful. Customizing higher level units is fun, people have asked for a while to customize traits (a bad idea IMHO), and so the idea is tempting, assuming it can be implemented without:
A: making high level units too powerful or
B: taking up too much time to design and balance special abilities for every 3rd level units in the game.

I suppose I'm split on the issue, and defer to the wisdom of more experienced developers. ;-)
Last edited by quartex on March 14th, 2004, 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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