Dwarf Sniper and Pistolier

Brainstorm ideas of possible additions to the game. Read this before posting!

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Forum rules
Before posting a new idea, you must read the following:
Tippsey
Posts: 226
Joined: May 19th, 2005, 4:41 am

Post by Tippsey » May 23rd, 2005, 11:23 pm

*cough cough* I never mentioned the machine gunner.
May the drakes bloody kill you all.

dtw
Posts: 478
Joined: September 27th, 2004, 1:32 pm

Post by dtw » May 24th, 2005, 6:13 am

me, closing debate, wrote:Of course i appreciate the machine gunner critcism - i suppose repeater rifle is a better way to put it but anyway, that aside too
me, replying to continued debate wrote: You don't like the gun ideas, boo-[censored]-hoo, it was merely a suggestion, which, after debate turns out to be a crap one, but i really don't need to read nonsensical crap from people long after the debate is closed.
Those were from two consequetive posts by me, you'll notice that after Joseph's arguements i did try to focus on pistols and rifles but people continually came back to the gunner and now we are still talking about.

I sincerely apologise to tippsey for confusing his constructive post with all the other crap. You can see in my response i again distanced my self from the machine gun idea i THOUGHT he was talking about - but he wasn't so sorry.

Of course you, EP, will choose to see this all however it suits you, so now I have clearly shown I had abandoned the machine gunner idea long ago, as it didn't actually post about it again - in fact in my very next post i only talked about the pistolier and rifleman.

Just to sum up:
EP wrote:The number of times you have tried this is precisely 0
That's just not true - i may not have done it well at all but i did try - AND, before you posted that, i changed the thread title and altered the first post - i think that is something don't you?

Tippsey
Posts: 226
Joined: May 19th, 2005, 4:41 am

Post by Tippsey » May 24th, 2005, 2:32 pm

Many thanks i was merely pointing out how a pistolier mechanics could work and that a rifleman if at the best of his bussiness can fire in an ok amount of time, although since it's sniper 1 would still be appropiate.
May the drakes bloody kill you all.

User avatar
Casual User
Posts: 475
Joined: March 11th, 2005, 5:05 pm

Post by Casual User » May 24th, 2005, 4:03 pm

Good day. Let us discuss the sniper and pistolier.

1. THE SNIPER

The unit itself:

It is impossible to be too accurate with a rudimentary firearm. The reason is that a firearm functions by explosion, and explosion means throwback. Accuracy can only be good when throwback is minimal, which means a highly controlled explosion which means at least mid-18th centhury technology. That would be unbalanced. Thus, out.

The basic concept:

The concept is of a thunderer with marksman but with some other shortcoming or who maxes out at level 2, etc... If you ask me, marksman implies a certain finesse. Marksmen are shooters which use less raw force and more careful forethought and aiming. This does not suit the dwarfs who, by definition are the raw power faction, using weapons like axes and hammers which have no subtlety, wearing heavy armor, etc... Marksman just doesn't fit, and some originality is good. The concept seems bad to me.

2. THE PISTOLIER

The unit itself:

Yes you can shoot twice if you have two pistols, but then you have to re-charge each of those pistols individually, which takes roughly the same time as re-charging twice a musket. It is therefore hard to see why the pistolier would fire faster. Apart from which, the pistolier suggests a light nfantry/swashbuckling adventurer which hardly sounds dwarfish. Thus, out.

The basic concept:

The basic concept is that of a thunderer who deals less damage on each shot but shoots twice. I am not against the concept, but I do have three reservations against it:
1. How do you make such an unit which seems good for the dwarfs?
2. Wouldn't this make the thunderer line less unique?
3. Would this really bring something more to the game?

Conclusion: These are my opinions: the fast-fire one and the marksman one are not good concepts and out. The two-shots one isn't bad but the pistolier proposal is. I'm not even sure about the concept...

P.S. Remember that you posted it here for opinions.

Raelifin
Posts: 21
Joined: May 7th, 2005, 7:54 am

Post by Raelifin » May 24th, 2005, 4:59 pm

Casual User wrote:The unit itself:

Yes you can shoot twice if you have two pistols, but then you have to re-charge each of those pistols individually, which takes roughly the same time as re-charging twice a musket. It is therefore hard to see why the pistolier would fire faster.
This would be true in a calm firing situation. However, the current idea is (or at least in my mind) that the thunderer caries a loaded musket and fires it in combat then reloads it out of combat. Thus the pistols would be the same firing speed if you count reloading but they would grant more shots in a short amount of time.

I agree with the rest of your post.
And, as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!
-Lewis Carroll "Jabberwocky"

User avatar
turin
Lord of the East
Posts: 11662
Joined: January 11th, 2004, 7:17 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Post by turin » May 24th, 2005, 9:10 pm

I agree with Casual User's post. In answer to his concerns:
The basic concept is that of a thunderer who deals less damage on each shot but shoots twice. I am not against the concept, but I do have three reservations against it:
1. How do you make such an unit which seems good for the dwarfs?
You use a weapon along the lines of the image I have attached. Those two guns are from the 15th century, IIRC.
2. Wouldn't this make the thunderer line less unique?
In a way, yes. However, two strikes is still a LOT less than most primarily ranged units have. It would still retain the "lots of damage, few shots" feel to it, it would just be less extreme.
3. Would this really bring something more to the game?
I think so. To start, it would make thunderers potentially improve in a different way when they level; currently, if you level a thunderer, mostly you just gain health. It does so much damage, you usually do enough to kill anyway, whether it is a thunderer or a thunderguard, and if you don't as a thunderer, you just wound and another unit gets the now-much-easier-to-get kill. This will give the dwarves a unit that is not kill-or-do-nothing.
For I am Turin Turambar - Master of Doom, by doom mastered. On permanent Wesbreak. Will not respond to private messages. Sorry!
And I hate stupid people.
The World of Orbivm

CyberJack
Posts: 161
Joined: November 25th, 2004, 2:50 pm
Location: UK

Post by CyberJack » May 24th, 2005, 9:42 pm

khamul wrote:
Casual User wrote:Good afternoon!

1. Unsing said:"i can notch and fire my bow with good acurracy, in about 5 seconds" Have you ever actually timed it? I'm asking because I used to think it took me 10 seconds max to shoot, and itturns out it takes me about 30... See, no matter how fast you do it, drawing an arrow out of the quiver and nooking it takes a good 4-5 seconds altogether, so...
I think the technique used by the English longbowmen at Crecy, Poitiers, etc, was to plant the arrows (point first) in the ground at their feet. It made them less mobile once the battle started, but removed the need to get the arrow out the quiver.

There's still the time to nock the arrow, and draw the bow - I'm not sure how much they bothered about aiming, particularly. There are statistics on how many arrows each archer could fire per minute - but I don't know them.

I assume the elves fight rather like this.
English longbowmen were said to be able to fire as many as twenty arrows per minute, or one every three seconds (at least until they ran out of predeployed ones and had to restock). That's even faster than Unsing claimed; but, I suspect the figure relates to an elite archer who's been practicing for years. Even so, 5-6 seconds/shot should certainly be achievable with only moderate training.

For comparison, it takes me 20 seconds to load-aim-fire my crossbow - yes, I have timed it. With sufficient practice, I might get that down to 15; but that still makes a crossbow 3-5 times slower than a longbow.

Now, as for a variant dwarf gunner: how about a dispersed-charge weapon i.e. a blunderbuss. Whereas a musket fires a single ball, which either hits for a lot of damage, or misses completely, with a blunderbuss the charge is lots of small bits of shrapnel, which are fired in a dispersed pattern. Thus, you're unlikely to miss completely; but the target may be hit by anything between, say, 20% and 80% of the full load.

It seems very much in character for the dwarves; quite the opposite of the pistolier. Reload time is of course much the same as the musket.

The main difficulty with this idea is that the Wesnoth game mechanics don't allow for a single shot to do variable damage!
"As for the future, your task is not to foresee it, but to enable it" -- Antoine de-Saint Exupery.

dtw
Posts: 478
Joined: September 27th, 2004, 1:32 pm

Post by dtw » May 25th, 2005, 1:26 am

ok, how about simultaneous reloading, I already mentioned this - what is the fast way to wash and dry two dishes?

Wash - Dry - Wash - Dry

or Wash - Wash - Dry - Dry?

especially more easy with smaller pistols and a dual nozzle powder horn

I did suggest that the sniper be called a rifleman - suggesting he had a weapon with a rifled barrel, which, as we all know, makes them more accurate than your average hand cannon + plus he might take the time to aim rather than just blasting from the hip shotgun style as the dwarfs do now.

Before anyone says, yes, you can have a rifle with simple ball ammo, it's how rifles started
Signature dropped due to use of img tag

Tippsey
Posts: 226
Joined: May 19th, 2005, 4:41 am

Post by Tippsey » May 25th, 2005, 3:09 am

Hmm longer barrels would make sense and as dwarves are masters of making weapons they most likely could come up with such things.

And also to casual user since I'm sure he'll object by saying dwarves don't have the finese. Just because they use axes and hammers does not mean they lack finese. Such weapons can have quite a bit of finese as most axe users didn't just run in go rar and slam axe on opponents head. Ussually they built up a swing and motion, so they could conserve strength and lead up to a larger blow also disarming and other techinques can be done at least with an axe, so before you go dwarves have no finese take a second look. What it should be is they lack grace and beauty in there fighting. Dwarves are a practical race and sniping or marksmenship is very practical.
May the drakes bloody kill you all.

dtw
Posts: 478
Joined: September 27th, 2004, 1:32 pm

Post by dtw » May 25th, 2005, 4:37 am

...although possibly not so common, maybe reflected in a higher XP value?

Does a branch that goes:

thunderer ---> thunderguard --> dragonguard
---> pistolier --> rifleman

make absolutely no sense? You certainly aim pistols more than the shoort from the hip thunderer style and you'd have dual reload experience...
Signature dropped due to use of img tag

CyberJack
Posts: 161
Joined: November 25th, 2004, 2:50 pm
Location: UK

Post by CyberJack » May 25th, 2005, 8:43 am

dibblethewrecker wrote:You certainly aim pistols more than the shoort from the hip thunderer style and you'd have dual reload experience...
Shoot from the hip? A dwarf? Must be aiming for the enemy's knees then :) I've always thought of the thunderer-line weapons as more like SLMs (shoulder-launched mortars), hence justifying the huge damage (and slow rate-of-fire).
"As for the future, your task is not to foresee it, but to enable it" -- Antoine de-Saint Exupery.

User avatar
turin
Lord of the East
Posts: 11662
Joined: January 11th, 2004, 7:17 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Post by turin » May 25th, 2005, 12:23 pm

Code: Select all

pistolier -> rifleman
still IMHO makes no sense, even with your explanation. A unit that switches weapons 3 times isn't going to be all that good with any of them. Also, you use a pistol much differently than a rifle.

What is the problem with just having it be

Code: Select all

rifleman -> elite rifleman
although with more creative names?

Plus, I think a pistolier is more advanced technologically than a rifleman, so switching from pistol back to rifle seems unlikely.
For I am Turin Turambar - Master of Doom, by doom mastered. On permanent Wesbreak. Will not respond to private messages. Sorry!
And I hate stupid people.
The World of Orbivm

User avatar
Elvish_Pillager
Posts: 8129
Joined: May 28th, 2004, 10:21 am
Location: Everywhere you think, nowhere you can possibly imagine.
Contact:

Post by Elvish_Pillager » May 25th, 2005, 7:34 pm

turin wrote:

Code: Select all

pistolier -> rifleman
still IMHO makes no sense, even with your explanation. A unit that switches weapons 3 times isn't going to be all that good with any of them. Also, you use a pistol much differently than a rifle.
We already have Spearman -> Pikeman -> Halberdier...
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.

User avatar
turin
Lord of the East
Posts: 11662
Joined: January 11th, 2004, 7:17 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Post by turin » May 25th, 2005, 9:16 pm

A pike is a long spear. A halberd is a pike with a blade on the end. Its not a fundamental change in the weaponry you're using, its just increasing in power.

A pistol, OTOH, is much different from the weapon the original thunderer is carrying (it looks kind of like a hand-cannon to me, but I can't tell). And he would have 2 pistols. Then, to go from 2 pistols to one multiple-shot rifle, just makes no sense, to me at least...
For I am Turin Turambar - Master of Doom, by doom mastered. On permanent Wesbreak. Will not respond to private messages. Sorry!
And I hate stupid people.
The World of Orbivm

User avatar
Elvish_Pillager
Posts: 8129
Joined: May 28th, 2004, 10:21 am
Location: Everywhere you think, nowhere you can possibly imagine.
Contact:

Post by Elvish_Pillager » May 25th, 2005, 10:07 pm

turin wrote:A pike is a long spear.
A gross simplification. A pike is also heavier than a spear, for instance, and the mechanics of fighting are totally different. Poking someone with a spear is well and good, but with a pike you have some manuvering to do first. A spearman, used to being able to turn his spear to face his enemy with relative ease, would be quite clumsy at first with a pike.
turin wrote:A halberd is a pike with a blade on the end. Its not a fundamental change in the weaponry you're using, its just increasing in power.
Again, you don't seem to understand the basic way the weapon works. People don't use halberds because they're upgraded pikes; they use them because they're halberds. You have to be quite strong to use a halberd, unlike a spear (which you need only move quickly) or a pike (which you need only point at your enemy). It's like saying a horse-drawn carrige is just a carrige with a horse added on. It's a fundementally different thing, seeing as one requires strength and the other horse-skills. See, you don't have do swing a pike, which is the best attack of the Halberdier anyway. (I wouldn't mind so much if its attacks' types were swapped, but as it is it is rediculous.)
turin wrote:A pistol, OTOH, is much different from the weapon the original thunderer is carrying (it looks kind of like a hand-cannon to me, but I can't tell). And he would have 2 pistols. Then, to go from 2 pistols to one multiple-shot rifle, just makes no sense, to me at least...
Still, for the dwarf, it's just "aim and shoot." Maybe the mechanisms for sticking the bullets in the gun change, but that's not a task that skill is needed fore.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.

Post Reply