Dwarf Sniper and Pistolier

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turin
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Post by turin » May 25th, 2005, 10:14 pm

I know how you use a halberd. You do usually use it to slash. But you CAN use it just like you do a spear, so you can transfer from pike to halberd without learning any new skills. You just won't be the best halberdier ever.

---
With antique guns, reloading WAS a task that skill was needed for. See, gunpowder has this little explosive quality... also, aiming a pistol vs. aiming a rifle is just as different as the manner in which you reload them. One is a heavy, long cylinder which you hold in one hand with the end resting on the ground, light your match, and fire, the firing of which throws you back several feet if you are not in the right stance. The other is a light, small cylinder that you hold in one hand, point in the general direction of the bad guy, and pull a trigger. Even the manner in which you aim is different.
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Post by Elvish_Pillager » May 25th, 2005, 10:36 pm

Hmm. Let's not suggest that the thunderstick is a gun --- use no gun-referencing terms, such as 'sniper', 'pistol', 'rifle', etc.
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Post by Tippsey » May 26th, 2005, 1:16 am

Then what sort of lingo shall be used? Sword...somehow I think not. It looks like what a hillbilly would call a boomstick, smells like a boomstick shoots like a boomstick so why not use gun lingo?
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Post by Casual User » May 26th, 2005, 3:17 am

Good night.

1. Turin, I can't say you've convinced me, but I will admit a two-shot thunderer might be fun (I have an idea of a believable unit for the dwarves with this, see 4.).

2. No matter what the length of the barrel, to snipe, you need for the gun to remain in roughly the same position after you shoot as before. Without highly controlled explosions the throwback moves the barrel's position too much to be accurate. A longer barrel helps, but not enough to have snipers or marksmen. Early firearms, even with long barrels, could shoot in the general area at which you pointed it, but snipe...

Apart from which a thunderer with marksman is, in my opinion a genuinely bad idea.

I. Sniping is not a highly practical thing. It requires a perticular innate ability and it is hard to describe why some persons can be snipers and others can't. It is still true today in our age of lunettes with crosshairs. In the old days, accurate shooting with a rifle depended on instinct and a "feel" for it, much like a bow (i.e. finesse). Doesn't sound like dwarf territory to me...

II. You can argue all you want, but an axe or a hammer isn't a subtle weapon. Yes, there's trick in every trade, but there were very few ones in this one. Books after books were written about swordsmanship, some very old. How many about axes or hammers (which were widely used)? The fact that dwarfs aren't the finesse race is underlined even in unit descriptions (re-read the dwarf thunderer's description).

III. Few races have marksman abilities. look at the experience tree. Only the elves have a line with it. Already marksman doesn't feel right at all for the dwarfs, but to make them one of those who have a line with it...

3. You can't use the "wash, wash, dry, dry" approach with two pistols. Where do you store the powder-filled one? How do you keep the powder, bullet and so forth in their place? How do you keep the barrel clean while loading the other one? Doesn't work!

4. Here's my proposal for a two-shot thunderer: a dwarf with a double barrel gun. It can be argued that he fills only once with powder and that there are two very well separated compartments or something. You can argue that, since it is one unit, one movement, etc... you would re-load it faster.

5. About the hallberd swing, actually you mostly just raised it a little, then let it drop on its own. A hallberd is too heavy and long to swing... But if you want weird, how about spearman --> swordsman? I always thought swordsman should evolve out of a separate unit, like an axeman (an axe is used at least a little like a sword).

Thanks for reading, and sorry about the very long post.

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Post by Elvish_Pillager » May 26th, 2005, 9:13 am

Tippsey wrote:...why not use gun lingo?
NGIW.
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Post by Tippsey » May 26th, 2005, 4:44 pm

.... Hmm I trully don't know what that stands for...
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Post by Elvish_Pillager » May 26th, 2005, 8:08 pm

Tippsey wrote:.... Hmm I trully don't know what that stands for...
No Guns In Wesnoth.
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Post by Tippsey » May 27th, 2005, 12:14 am

Well then the thunderer's weapon has to be considered some type of weapon.....
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Post by Elvish_Pillager » May 27th, 2005, 9:12 am

Tippsey wrote:Well then the thunderer's weapon has to be considered some type of weapon.....
Yes. It's a THUNDERSTICK. Get used to it.
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Post by dtw » May 27th, 2005, 12:57 pm

casual user - are thundersticks absolute dawn of firearm weapons then? I think not - if they have enough power to do that much damage there must be the control you say is required.

second, snipers while rare, should be no more rare than elvish sharpshooters! hello?

and they weren't uncommon!
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Post by turin » May 27th, 2005, 1:23 pm

dibblethewrecker wrote:casual user - are thundersticks absolute dawn of firearm weapons then? I think not - if they have enough power to do that much damage there must be the control you say is required.
Even early firearms were very powerful. They just weren't accurate. I see no reason to believe the current thundersticks are exactly accurate. An accurate gun would have marksman, or even magical.
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Post by dtw » May 27th, 2005, 2:09 pm

they are no less accurate than any other unit in wesnoth so i fail to follow that line of thinking! they suffer no inaccuracy penalty do they?
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Post by unsung » May 27th, 2005, 4:36 pm

I think they chose to avoid an acuracy penalty because it only gets one shot and adding another penalty would make them useless.
oh I noticed that it says this was posted on saturday but its actually friday.
Oh no look out its a ray gun.
You should move to avoid the rays
the rays are coming out of the gun
if you are hit by the rays
you will be shot by the rays
the rays are fast so you should be fast to
can you win against the fast rays from the gun?

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Post by turin » May 27th, 2005, 8:23 pm

unsung wrote:I think they chose to avoid an acuracy penalty because it only gets one shot and adding another penalty would make them useless.
Basically. The accuracy penalty is reflected in the fact that they only have 1 shot. Normal units will hit at least once ~60% of the time against a unit with 70% defence; the thunderer will hit exactly 30%. That seems like an accuracy penalty to me, implemented in a way that doesn't clutter the game code.
unsung wrote:oh I noticed that it says this was posted on saturday but its actually friday.
The forums run greenwich mean time. Go to your profile and change it, if its a big deal to you.
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And I hate stupid people.
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Post by Tippsey » May 27th, 2005, 10:04 pm

So thundersticks are boomsticks and therefore firearms so technically a gun, unles it's considered artillery in which still it might be a gun....... Also about the marksman if the shot spread quite a bit since it's made mostly of pellets couldn't it have marksman because the user is getting close enough that it'd be hard to dodge the shot, like dodging a shotgun is hard.
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