Dwarf Sniper and Pistolier

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dtw
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Dwarf Sniper and Pistolier

Post by dtw » May 8th, 2005, 3:27 am

THE MACHINE GUNNER DEBATE YOU READ ABOUT BELOW IS CLOSED - DON'T EVEN BOTHER POSTING ABOUT IT!

HOWEVER, please do post about the pistolier and sniper


Reload/techical advancement logic

The way the thunderer line current works greatly reduces the options for other ranged units, mainly because of the current single-shot, reload time logic the “gun� weapons adhere to. Very few units in wesnoth suffer from such rigorously applied time logic and i think this greatly limits ranged units in this race! For example the elvish marksmen can fire more shots with greater accuracy, this makes no sense in terms of the same time logic.

Personally I believe that any new ranged units might require the adjustment of the thunderer line to balance the race, but i don't think that is bad.

I am aware of these threads but i figured it was better to start a new thread as they are all old:

flameguard
stormguard

Sniper/Rifleman – Level 3
10-3 ranged, marksmen

Nice and simple. If you are against the idea of “Rifleman� as a name look up 'rifling' in the dictionary. Added fun: give him 'ambush' in mountains and a pathetic melee attack.

“Machine Gunner�
Proposed as sprayer previously in this thread

A nice simple 4-10 ranged would be good i think, a simple rebalancing of the dragon guard power

If you need rationale for such a weapon it's easy, simply take 10 small bore barrels and tie 'em all together around a spindle minigun style, after each shot the barrel rotates revolver style.

What about reloading time? The range of the weapon is so short that the bullets are very small and have very little primer or the dwarfs could easily have invented a fast reload mechanism. Who cares. See reload logic above.

Graphics
I notice that some unit's ranged attacks are executed very fast e.g. Konrad's bow shots are very rapid whereas an elven archer takes more time between shots, dunno why that is but if you make the delay between shots for this unit like konrad's, against a range less enemy you would get a cool machine gun effect!

Pistolier – Level 3
Thunderstick x2
18-2

Ok, lets talk probabilities:

Vs Troll in Cave – 40% defense
dragonguard – 60% chance of 40 damage, 40% chance 0 damage
pistolier – 36% chance of 36 damage, 84% chance of at least 18 damage, 48% chance of 18 damage, 16% 0 damage

How fair is that?
Last edited by dtw on May 23rd, 2005, 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

MadMax
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Post by MadMax » May 8th, 2005, 1:27 pm

Cartridge ammo did not exist at the equivalent time on the real world, rather the gunpowder and the the bullet were separate.
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turin
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Post by turin » May 8th, 2005, 2:14 pm

I think your proposal does not make sense. Lets go into the subject of early firearms - they took a really long time to reload (as in, there were 12 steps to reload an early firearm, totalling about 3-4 minutes to fire one - much longer than a crossbow, which is considered a slow weapon compared to a longbow).

Unless you werecarrying around multiple of them, you weren't going to get multiple shots. Unless you have a multi-barreled one, which did exist, but then it still took rather long to fire off more than 2 shots. Also, it should be noted the force of the recoil was really large, and would make you unable to prepare another shot for at least 20 seconds.

Now, lets compare that to a longbow. You say it doesn't make sense for the marksman to have 4 shots but become very accurate; I say, read "robin hood". He is extremely accurate, but shoots extremely fast. :P So your reload logic really doesn't make sense. Reload time in Wesnoth is in fact, at least somewhat accurate; adding machine guns would really, really distort that.

---

That said, I like the idea of a dwarvish rifleman. it is unlikely he could get realistically get more than 2 shots, though, and I think that it fits the dwarvish race's feel to only get 2. So he would get the 18-2 you proposed for the pistolier.

However, the idea of a machiner gunner is rather improbable, since gatling guns (the first machine guns), were not invented until the 19th century, and they were basically immobile anyway. Portable machine guns came in the 20th. I think the dwarves' technology is set around the 14th-15th century, so... besides, I think the idea is a bad one, since the mechanics of the game would make the gunner actually seem like a slow shooter, not a fast one. This is because he would stop in between each of his opponent's retalatory shots for the first 4 rounds, then go into rapid fire mode.
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dtw
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Post by dtw » May 9th, 2005, 3:17 am

mmm - I'm loving the way the realistic-ness arguement comes up when convenient!
He is extremely accurate, but shoots extremely fast.
Back up a realism arguement with a fictional tale? Give me a break! People say the dwarfs need expanding but for some reason realism keeps coming up but we have the drakes which are talking dragons that use swords?

It seems perfectly reasonable to me to give the dwarfs scientific/techincal/physics knowledge as they are miners

OK - that aside - glad the riflemen idea is at least somewhat acceptable. He could simply carry two rifles, that was pretty common for sharpshooters I believe?

Aside from the marksmen skill how do we the differentiate from the pistolier tho?

Of course i appreciate the machine gunner critcism - i suppose repeater rifle is a better way to put it but anyway, that aside too

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Post by SL » May 9th, 2005, 5:00 am

Bows are a hell of a lot easier to 'load' than an early 19th century (or earlier) firearm.

I could imagine the dwarves inventing a gun which used pressurized gas to automatically chamber the next shot, giving the unit several shots before he had to reload. I wouldn't want to get rid of the Thunderguard, though.

What about catapaults or cannons? If anyone would invent those, it'd be the dwarves.

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turin
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Post by turin » May 9th, 2005, 12:50 pm

dibblethewrecker wrote:
He is extremely accurate, but shoots extremely fast.
Back up a realism arguement with a fictional tale? Give me a break! People say the dwarfs need expanding but for some reason realism keeps coming up but we have the drakes which are talking dragons that use swords?
Realism, not realistic. There's a difference...

dibblethewrecker wrote:It seems perfectly reasonable to me to give the dwarfs scientific/techincal/physics knowledge as they are miners
Yeah, that's why they have the thunderer in the first place.
dibblethewrecker wrote:OK - that aside - glad the riflemen idea is at least somewhat acceptable. He could simply carry two rifles, that was pretty common for sharpshooters I believe?
Yeah. I think the main difference between him and the thunderer is the length and width of their weapons.

dibblethewrecker wrote:Aside from the marksmen skill how do we the differentiate from the pistolier tho?
We don't; 2 branches of teh thunderer is enough. :P
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unsung
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Post by unsung » May 15th, 2005, 6:42 pm

i can notch and fire my bow with good acurracy, in about 5 seconds. loading a assault rifle probably takes about 2 or 3 seconds. early firearms could take 30 seconds to load and were impossible to aim and had a very limited range.
Oh no look out its a ray gun.
You should move to avoid the rays
the rays are coming out of the gun
if you are hit by the rays
you will be shot by the rays
the rays are fast so you should be fast to
can you win against the fast rays from the gun?

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Post by Casual User » May 16th, 2005, 12:51 am

Good afternoon!

1. Unsing said:"i can notch and fire my bow with good acurracy, in about 5 seconds" Have you ever actually timed it? I'm asking because I used to think it took me 10 seconds max to shoot, and itturns out it takes me about 30... See, no matter how fast you do it, drawing an arrow out of the quiver and nooking it takes a good 4-5 seconds altogether, so...

2. The thing with the realism is that, if dwarves had machine-gun level firearms, they would conquer Wesnoth! Seriously, if they had the technology to shoot multiple bullets out of a gun in short time by gunpowder, no one would stand in their way. You'll say Wesnoth is not realistic, but it has semi-realistic physics (our guys aren't floating around in space...), so the gun has to either be a primitive weapon which will take long to rearm to let others actually have a chance, or a gun with more advanced abilities which means dwarves are the rulers of the world... sprayer is out if you ask me!

3. Sniper or pistolier are possible, but out of character for the dwarves. They are both more on the light infantry side as in dwarves don't have any... I don't think the dwarf thunderer line should have branching.

Thanks for reading and sorry about the long post.

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Post by khamul » May 16th, 2005, 9:19 am

Casual User wrote:Good afternoon!

1. Unsing said:"i can notch and fire my bow with good acurracy, in about 5 seconds" Have you ever actually timed it? I'm asking because I used to think it took me 10 seconds max to shoot, and itturns out it takes me about 30... See, no matter how fast you do it, drawing an arrow out of the quiver and nooking it takes a good 4-5 seconds altogether, so...
I think the technique used by the English longbowmen at Crecy, Poitiers, etc, was to plant the arrows (point first) in the ground at their feet. It made them less mobile once the battle started, but removed the need to get the arrow out the quiver.

There's still the time to nock the arrow, and draw the bow - I'm not sure how much they bothered about aiming, particularly. There are statistics on how many arrows each archer could fire per minute - but I don't know them.

I assume the elves fight rather like this.

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Post by szopen » May 16th, 2005, 4:01 pm

See the "Thorgal" comics "Les archers". How Thorgal hold the arrows and was able to fast really shot. Well, that's just the comic-book, I know, but presented in very convincing way :)

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Post by egbert » May 17th, 2005, 2:17 am

dibblethewrecker wrote:mmm - I'm loving the way the realistic-ness arguement comes up when convenient!
He is extremely accurate, but shoots extremely fast.
Back up a realism arguement with a fictional tale? Give me a break! People say the dwarfs need expanding but for some reason realism keeps coming up but we have the drakes which are talking dragons that use swords?

It seems perfectly reasonable to me to give the dwarfs scientific/techincal/physics knowledge as they are miners

OK - that aside - glad the riflemen idea is at least somewhat acceptable. He could simply carry two rifles, that was pretty common for sharpshooters I believe?

Aside from the marksmen skill how do we the differentiate from the pistolier tho?

Of course i appreciate the machine gunner critcism - i suppose repeater rifle is a better way to put it but anyway, that aside too
Firstly, I'd like to remind you that Wesnoth is a FANTASY GAME. Legends apply here.
Secondly, who says dragon's don't talk? Who says they can't carry swords?
Thirdly:
I think the dwarves are fine as they are. They're a powerful and unique race, and don't need altering.

I, for one, don't want a bunch of gunsmen taking over wesnoth, and I don't want the dwarved to lose their current quality.

Plus, yes, when I'm shooting a bow and arrow, it takes a little more than 20 seconds to fire a carefully aimed arrow (I'm not very good). two or three seconds to draw the arrow, four or five to nock it, two or three to get my bow in position, five to pull back the bow, and about another seven or so to aim and let go.

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Post by dtw » May 17th, 2005, 3:42 am

egbert wrote:
dibblethewrecker wrote: Back up a realism arguement with a fictional tale? Give me a break! People say the dwarfs need expanding but for some reason realism keeps coming up but we have the drakes which are talking dragons that use swords?
Firstly, I'd like to remind you that Wesnoth is a FANTASY GAME. Legends apply here.
Secondly, who says dragon's don't talk? Who says they can't carry swords?
try reading what I ACTUALLY WROTE you IDIOT before shooting your mouth off! Your post agrees with what I said but attacks me for saying it!

You don't like the gun ideas, boo-[censored]-hoo, it was merely a suggestion, which, after debate turns out to be a crap one, but i really don't need to read nonsensical crap from people long after the debate is closed.

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Post by dtw » May 17th, 2005, 3:59 am

Hang-on

So, based on the current Wesnoth units and our strict but total nonsense adherence to "real" history the dual-wield pistolier and the rifleman sharpshooter are not only realistic but in fact feasible, as reloading two such weapons, rifles side by side or little pistols seperately, is not too hard or time consuming

Pistolier, 2 shots but weaker than the normal thunderer, more mobile so higher defenses
Rifleman, 2 shots, same strength as the thunderer but with marksman

Also, regarding reload logic [censored]:

1) An elvish sharpshooter can fire as many as 7*5=35 arrows a turn (10-5 stats - one attack six defends)

how the HELL does he carry enough arrows for 5 turns (175) let alone 18 (630) or even 40 (1400)

2) Take the same situation with a thunderer - if he is attacked by 6 ranged units in a row, he fires and reloads six shots in the time it takes him to fire one normally

I don't want a justification - i am merely pointing out more cases of logic/realism/adherence to history that is ignored when convenient. If you do try to justify this then you merely open up more opportunities to justify other concepts you would otherwise reject

I am NOT saying the above situations are STUPID, they are the fun of the game, but trying to apply the different (harsher) logic to dwarven units is baseless when you actually LOOK at how the game WORKS!

If an idea doesn't suit the feel of the game then IT DOESN'T SUIT THE FEEL OF THE GAME! No more justification is necessary as far as I am concerned. I mean, look at the criticism of the drakes!

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Post by Elvish_Pillager » May 17th, 2005, 9:09 am

Don't yell. This is all about nothing anyway, since WINR. If you'd actually come up with a game-play based suggestion, we could argue about that instead, which would be much more productive.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.

dtw
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Post by dtw » May 18th, 2005, 2:53 am

well, as i already said - if the ideas forums is for people to present ideas and have other people shoot the down then what is the point? I thought the idea was you suggested stuff and people collaborated with improvements and ideas not that you already ahd the netire idea completely planned out and WML written

I think i made plenty of gameplay suggestions - i think you just choose not to see them EP

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