Trait Suggestions

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Tom_Of_Wesnoth
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Trait Suggestions

Post by Tom_Of_Wesnoth » January 15th, 2019, 10:58 pm

Here's a few ideas I've had for traits that could be added to the game. As the sticky thread on frequently proposed ideas says, I've tried to keep them relatively simple.

Agressive

+1 damage, but only when on the offensive

I thought it would be interesting to have a trait that makes units more effective on the offensive, than on the defensive. This trait does just that, giving a unit extra damage, but only when it is the aggressor.

In terms of how powerful this is, I'd suggest it's roughly in line with Strong and Dextrous. Just like those traits, it gives +1 damage. Because it applies to both melee and ranged, it has a slight advantage (on units that can make use of both types of attack), but this is counter-balanced by the fact that it doesn't work when defending.

You could also mirror this with a trait called Defensive, that has the exact opposite effect.

Survivor

+20% to all resistances when health is below 33%

This trait is inspired by the trope of 'heroic last stands' in fiction, which seems particularly common in fantasy settings. By increasing resistances when a unit is heavily wounded, it makes it that little bit harder to land a killing blow.

In terms of how powerful this is, I think it's pretty similar to the Resilient trait. Resilient gives +4 HP, which is pretty significant when most L1 units have around 30-36 HP. This trait only applies to the last 10-12 HP or so, and essentially turns that into 12-14 HP. At L1, it is likely less effective than Resilient, but at higher level, it overtakes Resilient.

Cadence

+1 damage per successful strike in a row

I'm not sure if I've worded this one too well, but the basic idea is that every consecutive hit does +1 extra damage. If four out of four hits land, the first does normal damage, the second +1, the next +2, the last +3.

Three consecutive attacks do only +3, the same as Strong/Dextrous; four do +6, 2 points better than Strong/Dextrous. However, even for a unit with Magical attacks, this is only going to occur 34.3% of the time.

A unit with 1 attack should never gain Cadence.

A unit with 2 or 3 attacks will gain less from Cadence than from Strong/Dextrous.

A unit with a 4-4 attack will, over ten turns at 50% CTH, do an average of 8 damage a turn. With Strong/Dextrous, this becomes 10 damage a turn. With Cadence, this becomes 9.6 damage a turn - if my maths is correct.

A unit with 5 attacks will benefit more from Cadence than from Strong/Dextrous.

Where Cadence becomes more powerful is with Magical attacks. Now, a 4-4 goes from 8 damage a turn, to 10.9 damage a turn. With Marksman, this falls slightly, to 10.7 damage a turn.

This maths is complicated, but in-game, you can view the possible outcomes of a fight - which makes this all a lot simpler.

Cadence could potentially be better than Strong/Dextrous on the Elvish Marksman line, the Red Mage line, the Paladin, the Huntsman, and the Elvish Sylph. Therefore, I would suggest having this available for Elvish units, and for Mages.
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BTIsaac
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Re: Trait Suggestions

Post by BTIsaac » January 15th, 2019, 11:28 pm

It has been established earlier that suggestions for new traits won't be taken. If you want to make your own campaign you can implement them there.

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Tom_Of_Wesnoth
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Re: Trait Suggestions

Post by Tom_Of_Wesnoth » January 15th, 2019, 11:44 pm

It says in the stickied thread that suggestions are welcome, but "unlikely to be accepted" unless they're simple. There's a slim chance, sure, but the sticky does leave the door open for an extra trait to be added. I'm pretty sure Healthy, Fearless, maybe a couple of others have been added relatively recently.
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Re: Trait Suggestions

Post by The_Gnat » January 16th, 2019, 5:04 am

:D I actually really like these ideas. Thank you for sharing them.

Especially survivor and aggressive are really good traits and I would love to see them implemented in an addon or campaign. The idea of a heroic final stand is always really cool.

I personally think cadence has a bit too limited a windows for use as a trait. Only very few unite could gain this trait and be as good as strong / dexterous. However, an alternative idea could be to give cadence as a ability (rather than a trait). For example as an different type of leadership. It would also allow more strategic uses of cadence because you can put your leader who had cadence next to the units who would benefit most.


Another trait idea I had:

Tactical

+1xp after each battle (per level of the unit with this trait)

Basically another quicker advancing trait. But unlike intelligence this awards combat. For example if you have a swordsman with Tactical, after each battle it gains an additional 2xp (because it is lvl 2). This on average would reduce the xp of a lvl 1 unit by 8 and a lvl 2 unit by 16 etc.

Particularly for higher lvls this gets better as does Intelligent.

However, I do think one disadvantage of adding new traits is that it makes it less likely to get the trait a player may want.

What would be interesting though, is a trait choosing option. So that when you recruit a unit you get to pick what traits it has. Also I thought of:

Creative

At the start of each turn +1HP.

(This probably needs a better name ;) ) it is a pretty simple idea. Basically a minor version of regeneration ability. It would be limited at 8 hp max still even with village healing.

This of course gives a lot of hp over the course of the game, however it has considerably less use during combat because it doesn't increase Max hp or resistances such as with Resilient, Strong, or Survivor.

Overall I don't think it would be too powerful but it would need testing. If it is too good it could be balanced with -10% damage on melee or +5xp per level.

I look forward to hearing more of your ideas! :)

BTIsaac
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Re: Trait Suggestions

Post by BTIsaac » January 16th, 2019, 7:14 am

That last one sounds pointless, since the game already has Healthy, which is a lot more powerful.

IftU and AtS have a trait called armoured, which just increases resistences, period. I do in fact think that anything conditional like that fits the definition of complicated, but ultimately, it all boils down to how they affect gameplay.

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Re: Trait Suggestions

Post by The_Gnat » January 16th, 2019, 8:52 am

BTIsaac wrote:
January 16th, 2019, 7:14 am
That last one sounds pointless, since the game already has Healthy, which is a lot more powerful.
Yes thank you! I forgot about that. :)
BTIsaac wrote:
January 16th, 2019, 7:14 am
IftU and AtS have a trait called armoured, which just increases resistences, period. I do in fact think that anything conditional like that fits the definition of complicated, but ultimately, it all boils down to how they affect gameplay.
I agree, probably these do count as complicated. But Healthy also is 'technically' complicated so, as you say, it just boils down to how it effects gameplay. I don't really think these should be added to mainline, but I do think it is fun to discuss possible traits and potentially even make an add-on so they can be played in the game!

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Tom_Of_Wesnoth
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Re: Trait Suggestions

Post by Tom_Of_Wesnoth » January 16th, 2019, 12:34 pm

The_Gnat wrote:
January 16th, 2019, 5:04 am
:D I actually really like these ideas. Thank you for sharing them.

Especially survivor and aggressive are really good traits and I would love to see them implemented in an addon or campaign. The idea of a heroic final stand is always really cool.
Thank you!
The_Gnat wrote:
January 16th, 2019, 5:04 am
I personally think cadence has a bit too limited a windows for use as a trait. Only very few unite could gain this trait and be as good as strong / dexterous. However, an alternative idea could be to give cadence as a ability (rather than a trait). For example as an different type of leadership. It would also allow more strategic uses of cadence because you can put your leader who had cadence next to the units who would benefit most.
You know, I think that works a lot better than having it as a trait, and gives it more utility. It might not be as strong as Leadership, but would shine through when attacking poor terrain, or when using Magical/Marksman attacks.
The_Gnat wrote:
January 16th, 2019, 5:04 am
Tactical

+1xp after each battle (per level of the unit with this trait)

Basically another quicker advancing trait. But unlike intelligence this awards combat. For example if you have a swordsman with Tactical, after each battle it gains an additional 2xp (because it is lvl 2). This on average would reduce the xp of a lvl 1 unit by 8 and a lvl 2 unit by 16 etc.

Particularly for higher lvls this gets better as does Intelligent.

However, I do think one disadvantage of adding new traits is that it makes it less likely to get the trait a player may want.
The problem I see with this trait is that it has pretty much the exact same function as Intelligent - helping units to level up faster - and does it in a slightly less simple way.
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Re: Trait Suggestions

Post by enclave » January 16th, 2019, 7:55 pm

BTIsaac wrote:
January 15th, 2019, 11:28 pm
It has been established earlier that suggestions for new traits won't be taken. If you want to make your own campaign you can implement them there.
even if the idea is not supported by mainline wesnoth, it doesn't mean that an addon/modification developer can not come here, read it and create add-on/modification the same day which everyone will be able to use. The ideas are cool. Why some people have to go and spread their negativity without any reason.. i dont understand..
BTIsaac wrote:
January 16th, 2019, 7:14 am
That last one sounds pointless, since the game already has Healthy, which is a lot more powerful.
so in your opinion goblin traits like "weak" or vampire bat trait like "ferral" are all pointless right? coz they weaker than "strong" etc... ?

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Re: Trait Suggestions

Post by BTIsaac » January 17th, 2019, 9:17 am

enclave wrote:
January 16th, 2019, 7:55 pm
so in your opinion goblin traits like "weak" or vampire bat trait like "ferral" are all pointless right? coz they weaker than "strong" etc... ?
Those traits aren't "weak". They're handicaps made for balance reasons. Not the same thing as a trait which does something that already exists, but much worse. Healthy increases base health in addition to giving back 2 HP.

Negative traits serve a specific purpose. What would be the purpose of a trait that's just a severely underpowered version of an existing trait?

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Tom_Of_Wesnoth
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Re: Trait Suggestions

Post by Tom_Of_Wesnoth » January 17th, 2019, 11:25 am

BTIsaac wrote:
January 17th, 2019, 9:17 am
Negative traits serve a specific purpose. What would be the purpose of a trait that's just a severely underpowered version of an existing trait?
Possibly to be used where that trait would be too overpowered - I don't know where that could be useful, but for example, Mages don't get access to Dextrous.
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Re: Trait Suggestions

Post by josteph » January 17th, 2019, 1:19 pm

Agree with Tom: there is definitely room to consider traits that are weaker or stronger versions of existing traits. For example, the ordinary dexterous trait would be nearly useless on Dwarvish Dragonguard, but a buffed dexterous trait could be useful. There is precedent to that in abilities ("heals +4" and "heals +8"). It just a question of what makes for balanced/interesting gameplay.

New idea: an archer unit that gets double XP from melee battles that it initiated. (This might work better as an ability than a trait.)

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Re: Trait Suggestions

Post by Tom_Of_Wesnoth » January 17th, 2019, 9:34 pm

I like the idea for a ranged unit gaining more experience by fighting in melee - it creates a real risk/reward tradeoff.
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Re: Trait Suggestions

Post by enclave » January 19th, 2019, 7:20 am

Tom_Of_Wesnoth wrote:
January 17th, 2019, 9:34 pm
I like the idea for a ranged unit gaining more experience by fighting in melee - it creates a real risk/reward tradeoff.
maybe only if used in offense.. in defense it would make unit a bit op.. there might be of course a unit that would want to get such benefits in defense too, just to make it stronger.. if its otherwise weak.. idk

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Re: Trait Suggestions

Post by Tom_Of_Wesnoth » January 19th, 2019, 10:12 am

enclave wrote:
January 19th, 2019, 7:20 am
maybe only if used in offense.. in defense it would make unit a bit op.. there might be of course a unit that would want to get such benefits in defense too, just to make it stronger.. if its otherwise weak.. idk
I think both options could work, although you’re probably right that it should be attack-only.
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Re: Trait Suggestions

Post by Lord-Knightmare » January 19th, 2019, 3:50 pm

Creative

At the start of each turn +1HP.
Shouldn't this be +1XP per turn? Like the word creative means that the unit is sort of intelligent or can think out of the box. Saying it since my English teacher used to say that I am a creative kid when it comes to writing stories.

I had a few trait ideas to add:

attuned(for mage-like units)
This implies that the unit is more skilled in magic usage, so, +1 damage to whatever attack has the magical/enchanted/precision special and also +10% arcane resistance. However, a penalty of -10% HP will be imposed as such higher mental strength has left them sort of lacking endurance.
Summary = +1 damage to all magical attacks, +10% arcane resistance, -10% HP.

fireheart
+20% to fire damage but -10% resistance to cold.

frostheart
+20% to cold damage but -10% resistance to fire.

I think that a buffing trait should be supplemented with a negative attribute to prevent it from being too powerful. The traits in the core game are balanced as they are, but when considering traits added by UMC, things can sometimes get out of hand.
Consider the trait obedient in vampires. "Zero Upkeep"... on its own, this is overpowered, but the trait has also been supplemented with -5% HP and 5% increment in XP, as a means of balance and works out quite well. Hence, I added some corresponding minor debuffs to the initial effect.

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