Great Mage Again

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Caladbolg
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Re: Great Mage Again

Post by Caladbolg » December 1st, 2018, 12:40 pm

Pentarctagon wrote:
November 29th, 2018, 1:13 am
What about an Incendiary weapon special? It would do some amount of damage per turn for either X numbers, until the unit entered a water hex, or until it was healed on a village/etc.
If on melee, that'd be interesting. On ranged I think it wouldn't add much.

Another thing that came to mind is some sort of mentoring ability, as they are supposed to be the greatest scholars. Maybe surrounding units get +25% xp on kills. So killing a lvl 0 unit would give 5 xp instead of 4, and in general killing lvl x would give 10x instead 8x xp. So instead of giving him weaker attacks so he could set up kills for lower lvl units, he can boost xp gains directly. As it's only on kills, the units would still have to expose themselves to risk. If that would be too strong, maybe we make it so the boost only applies when units kill an enemy that is higher lvl than them.

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ghype
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Re: Great Mage Again

Post by ghype » December 1st, 2018, 4:19 pm

In quenoth there was this ability introduced "teaching" i think, which redistributes his xp to surounding units.

Whiskeyjack
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Re: Great Mage Again

Post by Whiskeyjack » December 1st, 2018, 7:41 pm

Unit description wrote:Any person who is even considered for the title of Great Mage is quite nearly a legend in their own time, and town criers have forcibly learnt discretion in applying the title. Merit for the title is carefully considered by a council of the leading magi of the age, and the conferment of the title is given only by a majority vote. Regardless, anyone who is seriously nominated for the honor of being called a Great Mage is, without question, a master of their art, and has surpassed almost any of their peers in skill.

Though they are not warriors, by any means, the application of their art to combat is something that often causes other soldiers to stand aside in awe.
While I have nothing against the teaching idea, I'd like to reiterate that the current unit has nothing to do with teaching and all to do with above and beyond magic skills.
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The_Gnat
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Re: Great Mage Again

Post by The_Gnat » December 1st, 2018, 8:29 pm

I propose we take a poll to change the mage's name because it is hard to tell what people want otherwise.

Also I do agree that teaching and Incendiary wouldn't add much.

For the buff I am opposed to any new and profound ability which the previous level didn't have. I personally see the introduction of a mother attack or a simple but powerful weapon special as a much better way to balance the mage.

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Samonella
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Re: Great Mage Again

Post by Samonella » December 1st, 2018, 9:20 pm

Here's a random idea that may or may not be good. Since high level mages are supposed to be good at bombarding enemy units, they could get a reverse-steadfast, so the mage takes reduced retaliation damage while attacking with the fireball.
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ghype
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Re: Great Mage Again

Post by ghype » December 1st, 2018, 9:34 pm

Samonella wrote:
December 1st, 2018, 9:20 pm
Since high level mages are supposed to be good at bombarding enemy units, they could get a reverse-steadfast, so the mage takes reduced retaliation damage while attacking with the fireball.
that is pretty much what Gnat talked about, and just like him, i am against adding new special/abilities which werent familair somewhere in mainline

The_Gnat wrote:
December 1st, 2018, 8:29 pm
For the buff I am opposed to any new and profound ability which the previous level didn't have.
In adition, the plague of lava monster seemse like a very nice idea. though it shouldn be called plague, right? or could it be called plague?

BTIsaac
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Re: Great Mage Again

Post by BTIsaac » December 2nd, 2018, 8:04 am

ghype wrote:
December 1st, 2018, 9:34 pm
In adition, the plague of lava monster seemse like a very nice idea. though it shouldn be called plague, right? or could it be called plague?
Well if such a thing existed, it could be called something different, sure. It could also summon a fire-whisp, like the ones in IftU. I mean mudcrawlers have lvl 0 versions. Still, if no new mechanic should be introduced, then I'll say again, we should go with the 10% physical resistance and increased melee attack that's also magical. I don't think anyone had any real objections against this one.

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The_Gnat
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Re: Great Mage Again

Post by The_Gnat » December 2nd, 2018, 11:24 pm

BTIsaac wrote:
December 2nd, 2018, 8:04 am
Still, if no new mechanic should be introduced, then I'll say again, we should go with the 10% physical resistance and increased melee attack that's also magical. I don't think anyone had any real objections against this one.
I definitely agree with increasing resistances. And a magical staff would be a nice addition.

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doofus-01
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Re: Great Mage Again

Post by doofus-01 » December 3rd, 2018, 5:51 am

The_Gnat wrote:
December 2nd, 2018, 11:24 pm
BTIsaac wrote:
December 2nd, 2018, 8:04 am
Still, if no new mechanic should be introduced, then I'll say again, we should go with the 10% physical resistance and increased melee attack that's also magical. I don't think anyone had any real objections against this one.
I definitely agree with increasing resistances. And a magical staff would be a nice addition.
The resistances and melee attack make sense. Avoiding crazy new mechanics in a mainline unit sounds like a good idea; that stuff should be in campaigns where there is more context and time for the player to adjust.
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iridium137
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Re: Great Mage Again

Post by iridium137 » December 5th, 2018, 5:05 am

Surprised to see so many people think the great mage is weak. I always thought it was a pretty good unit.

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The_Gnat
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Re: Great Mage Again

Post by The_Gnat » December 5th, 2018, 9:23 am

iridium137 wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 5:05 am
Surprised to see so many people think the great mage is weak. I always thought it was a pretty good unit.
IMO it's not weak but it isn't as powerful as some other lvl 4 units such as the Sylph and Armageddon Drake.

However, you make a valid point. Compared to the grand marshal and dwarvish arcanister it is fine. And as a unit I don't believe it is bad.

As a previous person pointed out: in most campaigns when you play the great mage you fight undead so it is quite powerful.

Caladbolg
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Re: Great Mage Again

Post by Caladbolg » December 5th, 2018, 11:30 am

iridium137 wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 5:05 am
Surprised to see so many people think the great mage is weak. I always thought it was a pretty good unit.
I wouldn't say it's weak, it's a pretty powerful unit. However, as it is now, I have no incentive to get it over Silver Mage or MoL. Teleport can be incredibly useful when fighting on several fronts and Silver has good resistances against magic. Can be used to fight magic-users, grab villages, surprise ZoC enemies, reinforce other fronts, in hit-and-run tactics, etc. Heal +8 and cures are always useful, and with a powerful arcane attack, good melee and illuminates, MoL is the best anti-undead unit, and still manages to be extremely useful with no undead around.

The only scenario where I'd want a Great Mage over either of them is in a relatively straightforward map (teleport not useful), when enemies are not weak to arcane and don't use magic (magic res and arcane attack not useful), when I already have enough healers and support units with e.g. leadership (so that more healing and illuminates are not useful), and I'm facing either a tonne of small units (where fireballs could easily carve through them), or some extremely powerful units, lvl3 or 4 (where fireballs are the only relatively quick way to whittle hp). And even then, to get the Great Mage, you need to pour a huge amount of xp into him.

Basically, Great Mages are only useful in long campaigns (so you can actually gather enough xp) against humans, orcs or dwarves, whereas Silver and MoL are useful in pretty much every situation. I think HttT and TRoW might be the only mainline campaigns where you'd get some serious mileage out of them.
So while Great Mage is not a weak unit, I wouldn't say he's a good unit. Giving him at least something a bit extra would make him more useful, not to mention more flavorful. I'm ok with stronger magical melee and higher res.

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ghype
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Re: Great Mage Again

Post by ghype » December 5th, 2018, 4:36 pm

so after all, (1) switching the name between Arch Mage and Great Mage makes sense and should be easy.

(2)melee magic and (3) a bit phys res make sense too me.

So i am supporting these three changes.

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The_Gnat
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Re: Great Mage Again

Post by The_Gnat » December 5th, 2018, 6:13 pm

ghype wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 4:36 pm
So i am supporting these three changes
I agree. I think probably best would be +10% resistance to everything and a 10-2 staff which has the weapon special magical.

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