New unit: bard

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Lòrien Silverbow
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New unit: bard

Post by Lòrien Silverbow » March 5th, 2005, 1:12 pm

Hi all! I was thinking of a new bard unit, still don't know in which team could be better, maybe it could be a variant of this unit in every team more or less...

The bard has an ability of inspire courage on his allies like leadership, or maybe it works not on damage but on to hit... He's the only one with this ability at firts level, so he's got not many hp, and poor attack (something like 4-2 and 3-2), the defence will change, it depends to the team he belongs to...

What do u think about it?

PS: sorry for my english... :D
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aelius
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Post by aelius » March 5th, 2005, 1:39 pm

In a totally irrelevant cultural moment: "You spoony bard!" is all I can think of.

Ahem...

Leadership-to-hit has been proposed a couple of times. I think it'd be interesting, but some balance issues need to be thought out.

How would it affect marksman and magic attacks?
Would it be cumulative with leadership-to-damage?
If the Bard is level one, can he lead-to-hit other level one units? How much?
Does he have an upgrade path that makes sense?

- b.
La perfection est atteinte non quand il ne reste rien à ajouter, mais quand il ne reste rien à enlever. - Antoine de Saint Exupery (of course)

Lòrien Silverbow
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Post by Lòrien Silverbow » March 5th, 2005, 1:46 pm

aelius wrote:How would it affect marksman and magic attacks?
I think magic could not be affected, like in rpgs, bard's power influence only attacks made with weapons or bare hands... Maybe marksman'one...
aelius wrote:Would it be cumulative with leadership-to-damage?
Yes, why not...
aelius wrote:If the Bard is level one, can he lead-to-hit other level one units? How much?
Yes, all units he is next to... Like the ancestral bard, the d&d bard, the celtic bard and so on...
aelius wrote:Does he have an upgrade path that makes sense?
Yes, we can make him evolve in 2 ways i think:
1) a sort of skald, who's more powerful and have stronger melee attacks
2) a more experienced bard, who have weaker attacks but his "inspire courage" is more powerful...
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Tomsik
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Post by Tomsik » March 5th, 2005, 2:02 pm

Lòrien Silverbow wrote:
aelius wrote:Would it be cumulative with leadership-to-damage?
Yes, why not...
Bad think example:
Normal:
Unit 1 5-4 60% CTH
Unit 2 5-4 60% CTH
In your idea:
Unit 1 6-4 80% CTH
Unit 2 5-4 60% CTH

Its really bad idea.

aelius
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Post by aelius » March 5th, 2005, 2:05 pm

My one concern would be that a level one unit who leads all adjacent level one units and adds to-hit cumulatively to to-damage leadership would be really, really, really powerful.

Having him not improve mages will probably be tricky to code, and violates the Simplicity principle a bit. On the other hand, I think that having units that consistently hit 75 or 80% of the time is also really unbalancing.

What faction would they join? Loyalists? What are bards doing on a battlefield? How do they play a musical instrument and attack at the same time? This has always been one of the role playing game clichés that I find rather silly.

Looking to historical armies, you might get away with a trumpeter or a drummer, but the question remains: why does he make his comrades more accurate?

- b.
La perfection est atteinte non quand il ne reste rien à ajouter, mais quand il ne reste rien à enlever. - Antoine de Saint Exupery (of course)

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Tomsik
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Post by Tomsik » March 5th, 2005, 2:09 pm

this unit should be named idioticassholeplaingoninstrument.
And shound give -20% CTH to enemies :D

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Post by Lòrien Silverbow » March 5th, 2005, 2:10 pm

Bards were always used in all battles of history, with romans, greeks, celtics and so on.... The bonuses they give was a morale one, so if a troup was supported by a bard with a trumpet, a drummer, a flag-taker (dunno the right word) its units were more motivated and without fera, they never think about the idea of running away and they fight well, and so on... Like the leadership ability as i told before...
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aelius
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Post by aelius » March 5th, 2005, 2:47 pm

I suspect there may be a translation problem that's causing my consternation. A bard is typically someone who plays a stringed instrument like a harp or lyre and sings. Not terrible useful in battle.

What you're thinking of, I believe, is a standard bearer or military drummer. These, as you say, have accompained almost every ancient army into battle (the Greeks were particularly fond of the flute; the Romans were particularly fond of the trumpet). I'm not averse to the idea of a unit like that being in the game.

I just really don't want to see Edward from Final Fantasy IV (or II in the states). Spoony bards.

- b.
La perfection est atteinte non quand il ne reste rien à ajouter, mais quand il ne reste rien à enlever. - Antoine de Saint Exupery (of course)

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Post by Monkey » March 5th, 2005, 4:55 pm

It's not like that tomsik, a 60% to hit is already a good one, most of terrains don't have that much of % to hit. And I don't think the bard skill would add 20% of chance to hit.
And for a safe use of both bard and leadership skills the bard would have to be next to a leader, and only one unit would have both influences. If you place the units other way the bard may get killed because the lack of defense.
This may not be true in other cases, like you overwhelming the enemy, but if that's the case you would already kill the enemy anyway.
I was wondering if this unit would fit wesnoth, but I was having the same idea of aelius, that the bard was one harp player in the middle of battlefield. But now I liked the idea.
In whatever faction he is chosen he will fit in my opinion, but it depends on the instrument he plays. On northerners the drummer would fit most, while on loyalists a trumpetman would be better. A harpist would be ok in the elves.

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Post by Elvish_Pillager » March 5th, 2005, 5:01 pm

tomsik wrote:this unit should be named idioticassholeplaingoninstrument.
And shound give -20% CTH to enemies :D
Die, deep walker! Fear my 110% chance to hit! My average # of hits is greater than my # of swings!
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LibrarianBrent
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Post by LibrarianBrent » March 5th, 2005, 5:26 pm

I think someone actually already proposed this a long time ago, but it was rejected because the idea was too "non-combaty".

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Post by Monkey » March 5th, 2005, 5:40 pm

there is no reason why a trumpetman couldn't hold a sword on the other hand
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aelius
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Post by aelius » March 5th, 2005, 5:51 pm

The closest thing to this proposal is the Goblin Rouser (which I'd love to see in the game, quite frankly).

I do think leadership adds some good strategy to the game, but I think it needs to be handled sensibly. It's not clear to me how trumpet players would plausibly improve accuracy.

Also, if you're adding the unit at level one, it has to be added to a faction that has level 0 units (right now, Loyalists, Undead, and Northerners). The undead aren't the sort of people to have morale, and the Northerners have the Goblin Rouser.

If you added it to the Loyalists, the only unit it would affect on level one would be the Peasant, who seldom finds himself in battle.

- b.
La perfection est atteinte non quand il ne reste rien à ajouter, mais quand il ne reste rien à enlever. - Antoine de Saint Exupery (of course)

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Post by turin » March 5th, 2005, 5:52 pm

Monkey wrote:there is no reason why a trumpetman couldn't hold a sword on the other hand
It takes two hands to play a trumpet... at least, I play in a school full orchestra, and the trumpets use both hands.
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turin
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Post by turin » March 5th, 2005, 5:53 pm

aelius wrote:and the Northerners have the Goblin Rouser.
Well, not yet. But I think that the Goblin Rouser is basically like what is being suggested here.
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