[mainline] list of new faction names for BfW era

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Can-ned_Food
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Re: [mainline] list of new faction names for BfW era

Post by Can-ned_Food » March 1st, 2018, 2:08 pm

ForestDragon wrote:
February 28th, 2018, 7:30 am
Drakes could have something fancy as a new name, like "Reptillian Alliance", "Reptillian Conclave" or what Can-ned_Food suggested.
Of course, there was that one guy who told us — once during the Dunefolk–formerly–known–as–the–Khalifate renaming discussion and once during a discussion on the Saurian race description — about how they thought the caste system of the Drakes resembled that of the Protoss.

I chose the word Legion because it is a large group, usually soldiers, and also because the word is paronymic with words like ‘legend’ and ‘legal’. It suggests that though they are martial and rough, they are conscripted i.e. bound together by a written code.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
March 1st, 2018, 2:54 am
Can-ned_Food's suggestion doesn't work either, because the drakes' language doesn't have an H sound.
Whoops. Shows how much attention I paid; though, to be frank, when I used the letter combination ‘HER’ there I was thinking more of a voiced glottal fricative glide to a rhoticized vowel.
I'd honestly prefer "Northerners" to "Orcish Horde".
If it is simply a matter of character, then sure. Orcish Horde does sound a bit too reminiscent of a certain other thing.
Of course, as the topical post stated, the choice depends on whether they are named for what they call themselves, what someone else calls them, or what we call them from beyond the metaboundary. If they would call themselves Northerners because they define their identity in terms of the southern Wesnoth lands which they wish to conquer, then by all means continue to use that as their name. E.g. “Yankee” or “the South”.

Anyway.

To clarify my purpose here: Originally, I didn't tag this for ‘mainline’ because I don't much expect it to ever be used as such. When I eventually compile and install Wesnoth 1-13 for myself :shock: , I'll be doing so with a new default [core]. To be consistent with that, I'll also be renaming the BfW era and maybe its factions.
I raised this topic mostly to get some input; by tossing up my bad, rough–draft names I was attempting to stimulate some criticism, and I'm glad you responded.
Last edited by Can-ned_Food on March 11th, 2018, 4:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Xalzar
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Re: [mainline] list of new faction names for BfW era

Post by Xalzar » March 1st, 2018, 5:57 pm

Can-ned_Food wrote:
March 1st, 2018, 2:08 pm
I'd honestly prefer "Northerners" to "Orcish Horde".
If it is simply a matter of character, then sure. Orcish Horde does sound a bit too reminiscent of a certain other thing.
"Orcish Horde" IMO doesn't fit since our Orcs are not always organized in a Horde, but only in times of peril and at the call of the council of shamans. Most of the time they are scattered in indipendent clans often warring each other. That, and the other mentioned reason too.
It is more akin to the Warhammer universe and the "Waaagh" in a way (slight similarity, don't quote me on that :roll: ).

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Re: [mainline] list of new faction names for BfW era

Post by name » March 2nd, 2018, 12:07 am

Some names that may be more descriptive than "Northerners":

Beastmen

Beastlings

Beastfolk

Beastclan(s)

Beastpack(s)

Feralfolk

Ferallings

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Re: [mainline] list of new faction names for BfW era

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » March 2nd, 2018, 1:02 am

Can-ned_Food wrote:
March 1st, 2018, 2:08 pm
Whoops. Shows how much attention I paid; though, to be frank, when I used the letter combination ‘HER’ there I was thinking more of a voiced glottal fricative glide to a rhoticized vowel.
Hmm, it's not entirely clear if they have a glottal fricative, since ESR didn't use IPA when committing the reference for drake phonology. However, I think it's reasonable to suppose that by /ch/ he meant /x/, ie a voiceless velar fricative; or possibly an uvular one, even further back. (For the record, I don't know if it was ESR who came up with the phonology, only that he was the one who added it to names.cfg.)
Can-ned_Food wrote:
March 1st, 2018, 2:08 pm
When I eventually compile and install Wesnoth 1-13 for myself :shock: , I'll be doing so with a new default [core]. To be consistent with that, I'll also be renaming the BfW era and maybe its factions.
Might want to get around to that sooner rather than later, if you want to be quite sure that cores are working properly by the time 1.14 rolls around. To be clear, I don't know any particular reason why they wouldn't be, but I also don't know of anyone who has tested them.
Cold Steel wrote:
March 2nd, 2018, 12:07 am
Some names that may be more descriptive than "Northerners":

Beastmen

Beastlings

Beastfolk

Beastclan(s)

Beastpack(s)

Feralfolk

Ferallings
I pretty much abhor all of these. The orcs are not beasts, nor even really part beast, despite that one note in the description. I think calling them feral is also a bit of a stretch (in particular, assassins seem decidedly non-feral to me).
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Re: [mainline] list of new faction names for BfW era

Post by name » March 2nd, 2018, 6:21 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
March 2nd, 2018, 1:02 am
The orcs are not beasts, nor even really part beast, despite that one note in the description.
Well but that is the canon description of their appearance. And in their portraits you can see their dentition is that of wolf or similar carnivore. They are ultra violent, constantly at war and rarely put thinking ahead of operating by their rash instincts. How differently from "beast like" would you expect anyone to describe them? Also consider their ranks include other such creatures as naga, wolves, trolls and goblins.

Some more name ideas:

Fiendfolk

Fiendlings

Hinterfolk

Hinterlings

Wildfolk

Wildlings

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Pentarctagon
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Re: [mainline] list of new faction names for BfW era

Post by Pentarctagon » March 2nd, 2018, 7:16 am

Fiend?
99 little bugs in the code, 99 little bugs
take one down, patch it around
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skeptical_troll
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Re: [mainline] list of new faction names for BfW era

Post by skeptical_troll » March 2nd, 2018, 10:15 am

I personally prefer names that hint at the background lore and give some depth, like 'Knalgan alliance' or 'rebels' or 'loyalists', while I find pretty dull obviously descriptive names like 'drakes' or 'undeads'. Players can guess just right that they are playing with drakes, undeads or dwarves, and similarly that orcs attack in hordes and that elves are sylvan creatures are so much a widespread trope that using them as names would add close to nothing. Even if a player only plays MP, seeing the name 'Knalgan alliance' will let them think that there is some story behind the factions and they are more than a generic tolkienesque potpourri.

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Re: [mainline] list of new faction names for BfW era

Post by Eagle_11 » March 2nd, 2018, 11:19 am

Well, they are named 'Undead' and 'Drakes' because they are the Undead and Drakes :doh:

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Re: [mainline] list of new faction names for BfW era

Post by zookeeper » March 2nd, 2018, 11:32 am

skeptical_troll wrote:
March 2nd, 2018, 10:15 am
I personally prefer names that hint at the background lore and give some depth, like 'Knalgan alliance' or 'rebels' or 'loyalists', while I find pretty dull obviously descriptive names like 'drakes' or 'undeads'. Players can guess just right that they are playing with drakes, undeads or dwarves, and similarly that orcs attack in hordes and that elves are sylvan creatures are so much a widespread trope that using them as names would add close to nothing. Even if a player only plays MP, seeing the name 'Knalgan alliance' will let them think that there is some story behind the factions and they are more than a generic tolkienesque potpourri.
Definitely this. You might not be able to include a geopolitical spin in the name of every faction (for example Undead), but purely descriptive names don't add anything either. The name of a faction does not need to tell you that it mostly has orcish units, as that's immediately obvious from the units themselves anyway, whereas a name like "Northerners" hints at a larger world and a backstory.

One can of course argue the merits of any particular name, for example "Rebels" not matching HttT poorly despite getting their name from it.

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Re: [mainline] list of new faction names for BfW era

Post by max_torch » March 2nd, 2018, 12:29 pm

Cold Steel wrote:
February 27th, 2018, 7:47 pm
Renaming "Rebels" to "Sylvans" would be a good change.

They were never rebels, even in HttT, because the elves and woses were never a part of the kingdom of wesnoth in the first place and neither were all mages and mermish under that government. The rebel force included elves, but also humans of both loyalist and outlaw types, dwarves, mermish, gryphons, etc. The elves and their close allies are nothing like rebels in any other campaign they appear in either.

It is downright confusing in multiplayer; new players might expect choosing a faction with a name like rebels would deliver a human outlaw faction, but never forest dwelling elves, tree and fish warriors plus a magician. None of those things makes sense in the context of a rebellion, but they do fit a deep secluded forest wilderness (in a fantasy setting), as the name "Sylvan" would imply.
I thought they were rebels because it meant they were Landar's people in Legend of Wesmere. That's not correct?

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Re: [mainline] list of new faction names for BfW era

Post by Sapient » March 2nd, 2018, 1:32 pm

I 100% agree with skeptical_troll. Giving up the more distinctive faction names in favor of generic fantasy names would be a step in the wrong direction, IMO.

Here are some quick ideas:
  • Northerners: Blades Crossed Banner. (banner connotes warlike and an alliance, the idea of two crossed blades fits with nagas and orcs)
  • Undead: Dark Pact / Dark Path (pact connotes a type of ritual but also signifies an agreement, e.g. an alliance; then I picked dark for the chaotic alignment, which is pretty generic, but that prefix could easily be changed)
  • Drakes: hmm... I'm kinda drawing a blank here. Maybe a reference to scales & tails, or their volcanic island would be appropriate?
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/User:Sapient... "Looks like your skills saved us again. Uh, well at least, they saved Soarin's apple pie."

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Re: [mainline] list of new faction names for BfW era

Post by skeptical_troll » March 2nd, 2018, 2:30 pm

I would also like to add that long-established faction names should only be changed for very compelling reasons and to very good alternatives. Anyway, for the sake of brainstorming:
  • Drakes: this is probably hard because the lore is restricted to few facts. Mentioning the volcanic island as Sapient suggests is an option, another one is referring to their relationship with dragons, like 'dragons' heirs/children/offspring/legacy' or whatever.
  • Undead: one possibility is to relate them to one of the famous liches in mainline campaigns, for example 'Jevyan/Mal Ravanal's legion/disciples'. 'Dark Pact/Path' don't sound bad either, it could also be 'Forbidden' instead of 'Dark', since that kind of magic is usually considered as abhorrent by most of the other races.

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Re: [mainline] list of new faction names for BfW era

Post by name » March 2nd, 2018, 3:57 pm

Pentarctagon wrote:
March 2nd, 2018, 7:16 am
Fiend?
"Fiend" seems to be about the original meaning of the word "orc" from old english.
zookeeper wrote:
March 2nd, 2018, 11:32 am
skeptical_troll wrote:
March 2nd, 2018, 10:15 am
I personally prefer names that hint at the background lore and give some depth, like 'Knalgan alliance' or 'rebels' or 'loyalists', while I find pretty dull obviously descriptive names like 'drakes' or 'undeads'.
Definitely this. You might not be able to include a geopolitical spin in the name of every faction (for example Undead), but purely descriptive names don't add anything either.
My main issue with the names in general is they do not follow one convention or another. Some factions have descriptive names (drakes, undead), some factions have weirdly vague names (loyalists, rebels, northerners) and one has an official political name (knalgan alliance).
zookeeper wrote:
March 2nd, 2018, 11:32 am
One can of course argue the merits of any particular name, for example "Rebels" not matching HttT poorly despite getting their name from it.
In any case, that is the one faction that really needs a rename, since it is so misleading no matter how you look at it.
max_torch wrote:
March 2nd, 2018, 12:29 pm
I thought they were rebels because it meant they were Landar's people in Legend of Wesmere. That's not correct?
No, the rebels multiplayer faction long predates legend of wesmere. The existing faction names predate wesnoth v1.0, when there were only four mainline campaigns altogether. Also note that in legend of wesmere, both sides of the elvish civil war used about the same units, not just the rebels but the loyalists too.

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Re: [mainline] list of new faction names for BfW era

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » March 3rd, 2018, 3:36 am

Cold Steel wrote:
March 2nd, 2018, 6:21 am
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
March 2nd, 2018, 1:02 am
The orcs are not beasts, nor even really part beast, despite that one note in the description.
Well but that is the canon description of their appearance. And in their portraits you can see their dentition is that of wolf or similar carnivore. They are ultra violent, constantly at war and rarely put thinking ahead of operating by their rash instincts. How differently from "beast like" would you expect anyone to describe them? Also consider their ranks include other such creatures as naga, wolves, trolls and goblins.
So their teeth are more like those of a carnivore than a primate, so what? That's hardly worthy of the label beastfolk. To be considered beastfolk I think they'd at least need to have fur or feathers or scales or something, and/or a tail. And frankly I don't think their violent behaviour is relevant here.

As for the others of their faction? Trolls fit the "beastfolk" label even less than the orcs. For me, the same is true of the nagas, though I could see a counterargument given that they're essentially snake-people (my reasoning is that "beast-folk" tends to implied furred people rather than scaled or feathered people). And while the wolves are certainly literal beasts, so are horses. Both are used as mounts. Neither really merits labelling a faction as "beast-folk". Admittedly, there's a world of difference between a wolf and a horse used as a mount; but they're still just mounts.
Cold Steel wrote:
March 2nd, 2018, 6:21 am
Some more name ideas:

Fiendfolk

Fiendlings

Hinterfolk

Hinterlings

Wildfolk

Wildlings
The best of this bunch is "hinterfolk", but that's not saying much; in particular, it seems to be a very poor description of them. The term "hinterlands" typically describes a near-coastal region; the orcs and trolls, however, are more of a hill and mountain faction, as I understand it.

Use of the term "fiend" is totally unsuitable, because in modern English it has strong "demonic" connotations. The last pair doesn't really work for me because it somehow seems to imply forest-folk.
Cold Steel wrote:
March 2nd, 2018, 3:57 pm
"Fiend" seems to be about the original meaning of the word "orc" from old english.
Which is, uhhh... pretty much completely irrelevant to Wesnoth.
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Re: [mainline] list of new faction names for BfW era

Post by MathBrush » March 3rd, 2018, 6:18 am

I don't support changing any names. But this is a fun thread. Here are some other names (again, I don't support any, but it's fun)

Northeners: Nocturnals, Nachttieren, Great Alliance, The Tribes, Iron Nation

Undead: Restless, Nocturne, The Eternals, The Endless, The Dark Horde, The Malites

Loyalists: The Piercing Horde, Swords and Hooves, The King's Army, The Steel Legion

Rebels: Treefolk, Forest Children, The Fae, The Fair Folk

Drakes: Children of the Dragon, Scalelings, Snacines, Untouchables, The Golden,

Knalgans: Outcasts, Hill Folk, The Stone Alliance,

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