[mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race name

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What should the Dunefolk's racename be?

Poll ended at January 8th, 2018, 9:57 am

Human (Dunefolk)
15
45%
Dunefolk
14
42%
Xalidi
0
No votes
Jinn
0
No votes
Sandfolk
0
No votes
Human
4
12%
 
Total votes: 33

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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam

Post by tr0ll » January 5th, 2018, 1:22 pm

Who are the Clans from the eastern provinces of Wesnoth continent? I dont recall a campaign with them. Maybe the "Khalifate" are (one of) them.
https://wiki.wesnoth.org/Humans
Can they be a faction similar to the Outlaws?

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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam

Post by Xalzar » January 5th, 2018, 1:34 pm

tr0ll wrote:Who are the Clans from the eastern provinces of Wesnoth continent? I dont recall a campaign with them. Maybe the "Khalifate" are (one of) them.
https://wiki.wesnoth.org/Humans
Can they be a faction similar to the Outlaws?
They are not Outlaws nor Dunefolk. They are subjects of the Wesnoth Crown, and they rule over seemingly semi-autonomous lands in the northeastern parts of the kingdom. Soradoc is their capital AFAIK. They are masters of the horses and provide Horsemen to the Wesnoth army.
They appear in the HttT scenario "Test of the Clans": https://wiki.wesnoth.org/CampaignDialog ... _the_Clans

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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam

Post by tr0ll » January 5th, 2018, 1:51 pm

ah its been too long since i played HttT!

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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » January 6th, 2018, 1:57 am

Xalzar wrote: A bit of context: Drakes AFAIK are native to islands. Here's a likely hystory of the Drakes: they hail from the archipelago of Morogor, in the ocean. We don't know if they inhabited the Old Continent before that point (I think it's very likely), but I guess they adapted to life in the isles. Then their homeland began to sink, and they started isle-hopping to safety until they reached the shores of the Great Continent.
As their description says, Drakes need large hunting grounds with prey, and they prefer unpopulated areas. Seems like islands were surely the perfect habitat (ocean all around, sea creatures to hunt), but not many are present on the west coast of the Great Continent, so they searched for alternatives.
Mountains were the solutions: scarcely populated by sentients, and rich of wildlife. The cold doesn't bother them too much thanks to their internal fire apparently, though they prefer settling near volcanoes since they need extreme heat for their forges.

So: Drakes do indeed like mountains, and they don't mind sand not because desert is their homeland (it can't sustain them since there are insufficient preys), but because they lived on the beaches of islands.
Little note for Saurians since they were mentioned in previous posts: they are also adapted to beaches and not deserts (see one of the scenarios in HttT where Saurians are settled on the coast trading with Nagas). I think it's fairly plausible that a different branch of Saurians could exist in the desert (reptiles are common in that environment), but "our" Saurians live in relatively cold swamps and muddy beaches.
Dunefolk are the most "native to desert" faction you could get at the moment (surpassed only by the Desert Elves of UtBS). So their superiority in sand is justified.

I don't think Dunefolk have a technological superiority in general, and that is the source of the misunderstanding. I think Wesnoth Humans and Dunefolk have different levels of technological advancement in different branches. I think Dunefolk are for sure better versed in Medicine and fire warfare (I think they use some type of fossil fuel, and they probably use it for something else too), and maybe even in state organization and world exploration (if they come from a different continent), and probably have some peculiar blacksmithing techniques.

Think of Westerners and Chinese: when gunpowder was introduced in Europe it was a real innovation, but that doesn't mean the Chinese, its inventors, were in general technologically superior to Westerners. They simply had a breakthrough in a branch neglected by the latter.
This, very much so. I think some of this is kinda what I've been trying to say all along.
  • The drakes and saurians are not desert natives, so it's fine for dunefolk to be superior to them on sand; if you want another true desert faction to compare them with, look at the Quenoth elves. (They probably don't exist contemporaneously, but the comparison could still be useful.)
  • Dunefolk aren't "the technological" faction - they are just more advanced in some areas, and maybe less advanced in others (such as magic).
Xalzar wrote:
tr0ll wrote:Who are the Clans from the eastern provinces of Wesnoth continent? I dont recall a campaign with them. Maybe the "Khalifate" are (one of) them.
https://wiki.wesnoth.org/Humans
Can they be a faction similar to the Outlaws?
They are not Outlaws nor Dunefolk. They are subjects of the Wesnoth Crown, and they rule over seemingly semi-autonomous lands in the northeastern parts of the kingdom. Soradoc is their capital AFAIK. They are masters of the horses and provide Horsemen to the Wesnoth army.
They appear in the HttT scenario "Test of the Clans": https://wiki.wesnoth.org/CampaignDialog ... _the_Clans
I'd hardly call these "eastern provinces of the Wesnoth continent"... if you replace continent with kingdom, it might work, but I'm pretty sure there's a lot of barely-explored land even further to the east.
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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam

Post by name » January 6th, 2018, 6:34 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:Well, the outlaw ranger unit already shows humans approaching the level of elves in forest, doesn't it?
Yeah that human ranger is as fast over forest and hills as over flat ground, I don't get how that can even be. At least it is a level 3 unit. :?
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:Anyway, there are no true desert natives in mainline as far as I can tell, so we can't really say how the dunefolk mobility and defense on sand compares to actual natives.
In default era, only lizard footed races have advantages on sand, so that has been their special territory for so long. I remember it even saying so in the help menu, that lizard footed creatures were adept at fighting on sand where other races were not. Even the reptilian naga do relatively better there than on other above water terrains.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:Yeah, there's no jinn (or fairies) in mainline, they're just something that fits the available lore that I'd like to imagine exists in the world (whether or not units are specifically created of them).
Well I agree of course. I really cannot see how anyone could object to having a jinn unit in the dunefolk faction.

"We cannot have a single authentic near eastern fantasy element for the near eastern inspired faction in a fantasy game."
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:Dunefolk aren't "the technological" faction - they are just more advanced in some areas, and maybe less advanced in others (such as magic).
That is the problem with them though. They are a faction defined more by lacks. They neither have nor lack technological superiority. But they lack magic. And they lack variety of races. They lack fantasy flavor in general, which is the flavor of mainline wesnoth.

It is not that they need to be the technological faction in particular, but that they need to be or have something extraordinary, just like all other default era factions.

They have some interesting game play concepts, yes. But the thematic package that wraps and explains these is bland and uninspired next to all other default era factions.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:I don't know of any that turn it off, but I want to point out that this isn't a binary choice. You could have an animation that slides forward, but not as far as the default melee animation. If the naffat's flamethrower is essentially a reach weapon (like a pike), that may even make sense... though spearmen and such don't have any variations in this as far as I know.
It really cannot be very different from other melee attacks or to the player it will not read as a melee attack. Consistency fosters understanding of the game mechanics more than anything.

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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam

Post by Vyncyn » January 6th, 2018, 9:31 am

Cold Steel wrote: In default era, only lizard footed races have advantages on sand, so that has been their special territory for so long. I remember it even saying so in the help menu, that lizard footed creatures were adept at fighting on sand where other races were not. Even the reptilian naga do relatively better there than on other above water terrains.
Given the physic of these reptiles, it does make sense for them to have an advantage in sand, but it does not mean they are natives.

I have a bigger problem with some other terrains.
Dunefolk has a slight advantage (over other humans) in swamp land. It's not big, but I don't see an explanation for that.
The Arif line is better on hills than mountain. I get that they are used to hills/dunes and don't like mountains due to the unusual height and temperature and maybe also because their armor slows them too much, but this is not explained in the lore AFAIK and other Dunefolk units don't have a problem with mountains.
Cold Steel wrote: Well I agree of course. I really cannot see how anyone could object to having a jinn unit in the dunefolk faction.
"We cannot have a single authentic near eastern fantasy element for the near eastern inspired faction in a fantasy game."
Agreed, Jinn is generally a nice and fitting idea. I just don't like replacing the Naffat, as he adds a lot to the faction (concerning lore and technology). I think the units, which can be replaced without a big uprise, are the lancer, the falcon, and maybe arif or jundi, but they furfill different roles than the jinn would. Maybe a jinn could be added as additional unit? At least he's flexible regarding damage type; Cold, arcane and fire could all fit him.
Cold Steel wrote: It really cannot be very different from other melee attacks or to the player it will not read as a melee attack. Consistency fosters understanding of the game mechanics more than anything.
1/4 to 1/3 of the normal "charge" would propably suffice to make it look like a melee attack. Just one small step in, launching a swish of flames, and going back.

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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » January 6th, 2018, 2:55 pm

Cold Steel wrote:Yeah that human ranger is as fast over forest and hills as over flat ground, I don't get how that can even be. At least it is a level 3 unit. :?
You even have a problem with the ranger? :? Wow...
Cold Steel wrote:In default era, only lizard footed races have advantages on sand, so that has been their special territory for so long. I remember it even saying so in the help menu, that lizard footed creatures were adept at fighting on sand where other races were not. Even the reptilian naga do relatively better there than on other above water terrains.
That doesn't mean they're desert natives, or even sand natives.
Cold Steel wrote:Well I agree of course. I really cannot see how anyone could object to having a jinn unit in the dunefolk faction.

"We cannot have a single authentic near eastern fantasy element for the near eastern inspired faction in a fantasy game."
Not sure about having the unit actually in the MP faction (after all, there are no fairy units in the Rebels faction, unless the wose counts as a fairy which I'd say it doesn't), but definitely having the association between the dunefolk and the jinn encoded into the lore.
Cold Steel wrote:That is the problem with them though. They are a faction defined more by lacks. They neither have nor lack technological superiority. But they lack magic. And they lack variety of races. They lack fantasy flavor in general, which is the flavor of mainline wesnoth.
I don't think they're defined entirely by lacks? They lack magic. They possess superior medicine. They possess flamethrowers.

As for variety of races, I just don't think it's important. Rebels and Loyalists are both very focused on a single race, for example. (Admittedly they also both have two or three exceptions - the mage, wose, and merman in Rebels, and the merman in Loyalists.)
Vyncyn wrote:Well I agree of course. I really cannot see how anyone could object to having a jinn unit in the dunefolk faction.
"We cannot have a single authentic near eastern fantasy element for the near eastern inspired faction in a fantasy game."
Agreed, Jinn is generally a nice and fitting idea. I just don't like replacing the Naffat, as he adds a lot to the faction (concerning lore and technology). I think the units, which can be replaced without a big uprise, are the lancer, the falcon, and maybe arif or jundi, but they furfill different roles than the jinn would. Maybe a jinn could be added as additional unit? At least he's flexible regarding damage type; Cold, arcane and fire could all fit him.
Wait what? Fire and arcane I could see, but how can cold damage fit a jinn unit?
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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam

Post by Vyncyn » January 6th, 2018, 3:34 pm

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:Fire and arcane I could see, but how can cold damage fit a jinn unit?
The classical "Genie in the lamp" is able to fulfill wishes and is almost a godlike being. Why shouldn't he be able to have cold attacks?
Of course fire/arcane would fit better, but the cold doesn't need to be connected to snow and ice. Saurian Oracle for example has the "curse" attack which does cold damage.

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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » January 6th, 2018, 3:38 pm

Ah, I do see what you mean, okay. Mind you, the ability to fulfill wishes isn't something that would be closely reflected in the unit stats...
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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam

Post by name » January 6th, 2018, 6:29 pm

Vyncyn wrote:I have a bigger problem with some other terrains.
Dunefolk has a slight advantage (over other humans) in swamp land. It's not big, but I don't see an explanation for that.
The Arif line is better on hills than mountain. I get that they are used to hills/dunes and don't like mountains due to the unusual height and temperature and maybe also because their armor slows them too much, but this is not explained in the lore AFAIK and other Dunefolk units don't have a problem with mountains.
The swamp advantages makes me wonder if someone wasn't hoping to replaces the drakes faction with this one, so many years back when it was conceived. Kalifa/khalifate/dunefolk apes the drakes in many other game play ways but I did not notice they do this too with the saurian-like swamp defenses.
Vyncyn wrote:Agreed, Jinn is generally a nice and fitting idea. I just don't like replacing the Naffat, as he adds a lot to the faction (concerning lore and technology). I think the units, which can be replaced without a big uprise, are the lancer, the falcon, and maybe arif or jundi, but they furfill different roles than the jinn would. Maybe a jinn could be added as additional unit? At least he's flexible regarding damage type; Cold, arcane and fire could all fit him.
There is enough diversity in the stories of jinn that the term might represent more than one type of being and so could fit more than one role in the dunefolk faction.

On one hand you have the idea they were- "A separate intelligent species of invisible being predating mankind." And had their own civilization before it was destroyed and many of them with it. So, very different from humans but not any less mortal.

On the other hand it is said that while humans were made from mud, jinn were made from "smokeless fire" or the "fire from the scorching winds".
Which suggests a more exotic, ethereal and fundamentally alien nature.
Vyncyn wrote:1/4 to 1/3 of the normal "charge" would propably suffice to make it look like a melee attack. Just one small step in, launching a swish of flames, and going back.
That might read as a melee attack, although you still have the fire plume being cropped very short before it hits the edge of the naffat's sprite's bitmap.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:You even have a problem with the ranger? :? Wow...
The huntsman is a more logical and consistent level 3 advancement for a human unit like this. The ranger intrudes too much into elf "territory".
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:That doesn't mean they're desert natives, or even sand natives.
But that has been solely their dominant terrain type in default era multiplayer for many years and development cycles. That it should be taken away from them by a group of physically ordinary humans is odd and makes lizard folk (and resultantly the overall world) less interesting.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:(after all, there are no fairy units in the Rebels faction, unless the wose counts as a fairy which I'd say it doesn't)
The elves themselves are fey creatures, that is why they are weak to arcane. The wose is weak to it as well and certainly an exotic creature by by any measure. The elvish shaman line does eventually evolve fully into two forms of winged fey.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:I don't think they're defined entirely by lacks?
But as I said they are defined much more by their lacks than their haves and the haves are not so impressive compared to the competition. A guy with a flamethrower is not more impressive than mages or drakes at doing the same thing thematically, probably less so for most. Explicitly and exclusively using herbal healing is not so impressive when you have so many other healer units that do almost as good a job (they only lack self healing for some reason). It is also odd that not a forest dwelling elvish healer but a wasteland dwelling human should have the best herbal knowledge.
Rebels and Loyalists are both very focused on a single race, for example. (Admittedly they also both have two or three exceptions - the mage, wose, and merman in Rebels, and the merman in Loyalists.)
This really only applies to loyalists since rebels really depend on their lawful woses and mages to break through most enemy lines (and then they have mermish too).

Loyalists occupied the role of the main human faction as well as the relatively historical-flavored jumping off point into the more exotic and fantastical world of irdya with its other much stranger factions. Yet even the loyalists had the notable exception units you mentioned which makes them look and feel more at home in irdya.

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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam

Post by Deciton_Reven » January 6th, 2018, 7:00 pm

Cold Steel wrote: That might read as a melee attack, although you still have the fire plume being cropped very short before it hits the edge of the naffat's sprite's bitmap.
Sprites in wesnoth can not only be any size needed, but also can be overlayed as needed to make something have """extra""" space if they need it. The bitmap can even change in scale during an animation. It really makes you seem uninformed when you keep saying incorrect information over and over as an argument to change something.

I mean just go look at any of the Drake Clasher line's sprites and see the dynamic sizes of the sprites in a single animation.

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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam

Post by Vyncyn » January 6th, 2018, 7:07 pm

Cold Steel wrote: The swamp advantages makes me wonder if someone wasn't hoping to replaces the drakes faction with this one, so many years back when it was conceived. Kalifa/khalifate/dunefolk apes the drakes in many other game play ways but I did not notice they do this too with the saurian-like swamp defenses.
Well not really saurian-like, but they have 30% whereas "normal" humans have 20%. Like I said, It's not a big advantage, but unlike the sand movement and defense bonus there is no in game explanation.
Cold Steel wrote: There is enough diversity in the stories of jinn that the term might represent more than one type of being and so could fit more than one role in the dunefolk faction.
Agreed, though I think they are best represented with a mage line.
This isn't really the topic for it, but I'm gonna throw in 2 ideas:
Spoiler:
Deciton_Reven wrote:
Cold Steel wrote: That might read as a melee attack, although you still have the fire plume being cropped very short before it hits the edge of the naffat's sprite's bitmap.
Sprites in wesnoth can not only be any size needed, but also can be overlayed as needed to make something have """extra""" space if they need it. The bitmap can even change in scale during an animation. It really makes you seem uninformed when you keep saying incorrect information over and over as an argument to change something.

I mean just go look at any of the Drake Clasher line's sprites and see the dynamic sizes of the sprites in a single animation.
Aw, you were faster. I was gonna suggest the dwarvish dragonguard. In the se-ranged animation the image-size also get bigger for a few frames without the player noticing.
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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam

Post by name » January 6th, 2018, 8:25 pm

Deciton_Reven wrote:The bitmap can even change in scale during an animation. It really makes you seem uninformed when you keep saying incorrect information over and over as an argument to change something.
Thank you for finally informing me then. ^_^
Vyncyn wrote: Well not really saurian-like, but they have 30% whereas "normal" humans have 20%. Like I said, It's not a big advantage, but unlike the sand movement and defense bonus there is no in game explanation.
Hah, well I guess they are Marsh Arabs.
Vyncyn wrote:Agreed, though I think they are best represented with a mage line.
This isn't really the topic for it, I'm gonna throw in 2 ideas:
Spoiler:
Those make sense to me. Making arif into a jinn would help it stand out in appearance from the jundi. Especially now that they are being given translatable common names that otherwise sound similar.

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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » January 6th, 2018, 9:13 pm

Cold Steel wrote:
Vyncyn wrote:I have a bigger problem with some other terrains.
Dunefolk has a slight advantage (over other humans) in swamp land. It's not big, but I don't see an explanation for that.
The Arif line is better on hills than mountain. I get that they are used to hills/dunes and don't like mountains due to the unusual height and temperature and maybe also because their armor slows them too much, but this is not explained in the lore AFAIK and other Dunefolk units don't have a problem with mountains.
The swamp advantages makes me wonder if someone wasn't hoping to replaces the drakes faction with this one, so many years back when it was conceived. Kalifa/khalifate/dunefolk apes the drakes in many other game play ways but I did not notice they do this too with the saurian-like swamp defenses.
It does seem a bit weird that the dunefolk are better than loyalists in the swamp. I wouldn't mind this advantage being removed, but if it's needed for balance reasons I imagine some explanation can be thought of. Desert dwellers could still encounter swampy terrain in an oasis or near a river, I would think. Or at the seashore - I'd be rather surprised if the dunes reach right up to the ocean.
Cold Steel wrote:There is enough diversity in the stories of jinn that the term might represent more than one type of being and so could fit more than one role in the dunefolk faction.

On one hand you have the idea they were- "A separate intelligent species of invisible being predating mankind." And had their own civilization before it was destroyed and many of them with it. So, very different from humans but not any less mortal.

On the other hand it is said that while humans were made from mud, jinn were made from "smokeless fire" or the "fire from the scorching winds".
Which suggests a more exotic, ethereal and fundamentally alien nature.
I don't think jinn need to be invisible. Maybe they can become invisible, I guess. I already mentioned the smokeless fire thing earlier. The idea of having a more ethereal jinn unit is interesting though...
Cold Steel wrote:The huntsman is a more logical and consistent level 3 advancement for a human unit like this. The ranger intrudes too much into elf "territory".
I kinda think that's the point, and it also kinda shows that, while elves are dominant in the forest, it's not outside the realm of possibility for humans to match them. Personally, I like that - a race can overcome its disadvantages by hard work and experience.
Cold Steel wrote:But that has been solely their dominant terrain type in default era multiplayer for many years and development cycles. That it should be taken away from them by a group of physically ordinary humans is odd and makes lizard folk (and resultantly the overall world) less interesting.
*sigh* Sand might be their dominant terrain, but there's no reason to infer from that that they're desert dwellers, as previously mentioned (someone said it probably comes from them being used to sand on beaches). Drakes are more a mountain race, and saurians are more of a swamp race. That seems pretty well-established to me.
Cold Steel wrote:The elves themselves are fey creatures, that is why they are weak to arcane. The wose is weak to it as well and certainly an exotic creature by by any measure. The elvish shaman line does eventually evolve fully into two forms of winged fey.
While the elves could be described as fey creatures, I wouldn't call them fairies - to me the elves seem more like part-fey rather than a full-blooded fairy. The wose does seem more like a full-blooded fey creature, but it'd be hard to call it a fairy.
Cold Steel wrote:A guy with a flamethrower is not more impressive than mages or drakes at doing the same thing thematically, probably less so for most.
I dunno, it seems pretty impressive to me. I suppose maybe it's not as good as drake fire. It could be improved, sure; I mentioned a few ideas in the unit names thread.
Cold Steel wrote:Explicitly and exclusively using herbal healing is not so impressive when you have so many other healer units that do almost as good a job (they only lack self healing for some reason).
There are no other units in the game that heal as well as the dunefolk healers. They have +8 at L1 when all other races only have +4. This seems quite impressive to me. Furthermore, unlike any other healer in the game, they can heal themselves at L2. (Trolls don't count; that's not a healing ability, it's a natural regeneration.) I actually think it'd be nice to add a L3 to the line though...
Cold Steel wrote:It is also odd that not a forest dwelling elvish healer but a wasteland dwelling human should have the best herbal knowledge.
Eh, I don't think that really matters. It's true that a forest dweller probably has more diversity to work with in building up herbal knowledge, but a desert dweller should also have a fair bit to work with. The forest dweller at best has a bit of a head start. Also note that merely living in the desert doesn't mean you spend all your life out on the dunes. You'd probably spend a lot of time by an oasis or a river, which would have almost as diverse flora as a forest.
Cold Steel wrote:Loyalists occupied the role of the main human faction as well as the relatively historical-flavored jumping off point into the more exotic and fantastical world of irdya with its other much stranger factions. Yet even the loyalists had the notable exception units you mentioned which makes them look and feel more at home in irdya.
It's only one exception, so in my opinion it barely even counts. (I guess there's also the ogre, but that was removed from the faction before I even discovered Wesnoth.)

Vyncyn wrote:Agreed, though I think they are best represented with a mage line.
This isn't really the topic for it, but I'm gonna throw in 2 ideas:
Spoiler:
I still prefer not to explain their better healing away as "powerful magic". All things considered, Wesnoth seems to be a relatively low-magic setting. Magic is just another tool that's available; it's not necessarily superior to an herbalist's knowledge. I wouldn't mind an upgrade to the hakim getting some form of magic, but for the base L1, I'd prefer it to remain non-magical. As for the second idea, that's kinda interesting idea, though an enchanted sword doesn't feel like it really suits a jinn very well...
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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam

Post by Deciton_Reven » January 6th, 2018, 9:28 pm

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
Cold Steel wrote:It is also odd that not a forest dwelling elvish healer but a wasteland dwelling human should have the best herbal knowledge.
Eh, I don't think that really matters. It's true that a forest dweller probably has more diversity to work with in building up herbal knowledge, but a desert dweller should also have a fair bit to work with. The forest dweller at best has a bit of a head start. Also note that merely living in the desert doesn't mean you spend all your life out on the dunes. You'd probably spend a lot of time by an oasis or a river, which would have almost as diverse flora as a forest.
It also depend on what herbs are around. If the elvish forests don't have the same range or potency in medicinal herbs as the desert they'd be unable to achieve the same level of accomplishment regardless of how attuned to nature they might be. If the elves lacked something as simple as Thyme-proxy while the Dunefolk had it, one would lack a plant used as a disinfectant while the other had it, which is pretty important, disinfectants are.

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