[mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race name

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What should the Dunefolk's racename be?

Poll ended at January 8th, 2018, 9:57 am

Human (Dunefolk)
15
45%
Dunefolk
14
42%
Xalidi
0
No votes
Jinn
0
No votes
Sandfolk
0
No votes
Human
4
12%
 
Total votes: 33

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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam

Post by Caladbolg » January 6th, 2018, 10:15 pm

I don't think the Dunefolk's lack of magic makes them bland or uninteresting in a fantasy setting. I think the fact that they can achieve the same things others do with magic, but without using magic, makes them more interesting. While I don't mind the idea of adding Jinn to the faction, I don't see where it can be added.
It'd make sense to use it as replacement for the Hakim or Naffat lines, but (in my opinion), those two unit lines contribute much to the feel of the faction both lore-wise and appearance-wise (the Naffat line especially have one of the coolest looks out of all mainline units). I'd very much like those preserved, and it seems others do too.
On the other hand, using the Jinn to replace units like Arif doesn't make sense to me. It'd be very odd to use special, magical beings as standard melee footsoldiers. When there are magical units in an otherwise mundane faction, it'd make sense that they are specialists, and not the most commonly used unit type.
Though, I admit, I'm not really fond of the Hakim line having the best healing capabilities when elves have not only a larger variety of herbs at their disposal, but also potent magic related to plants and (presumably) growth and life, and a culture that places a great deal of emphasis on caring for living beings. Elves have more potential (plants), more tools (magic) and more drive (culture) to learn healing arts and excel in them and I cannot help but see the Hakim as somewhat of a gameplay gimmick.

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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » January 6th, 2018, 10:42 pm

Caladbolg wrote:While I don't mind the idea of adding Jinn to the faction, I don't see where it can be added.
Yeah, me neither. My intent in bringing up jinn is more for background lore than an actual presence in the faction (similar to how fairies may function as background lore to the elves).
Caladbolg wrote:Though, I admit, I'm not really fond of the Hakim line having the best healing capabilities when elves have not only a larger variety of herbs at their disposal, but also potent magic related to plants and (presumably) growth and life, and a culture that places a great deal of emphasis on caring for living beings. Elves have more potential (plants), more tools (magic) and more drive (culture) to learn healing arts and excel in them and I cannot help but see the Hakim as somewhat of a gameplay gimmick.
I can see your point here, though I'd argue that you only got two out of three there - sure the elves probably have more plants and tools, but there's no particular reason to believe one or the other has more drive to learn healing arts. There are dangers in the desert that the elves need never worry about (such as dehydration, heat stroke, sunburn, etc); those alone could be quite a sufficient drive in my opinion.
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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam

Post by Vyncyn » January 6th, 2018, 11:15 pm

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:There are dangers in the desert that the elves need never worry about (such as dehydration, heat stroke, sunburn, etc); those alone could be quite a sufficient drive in my opinion.
Not to forget scorpions. Their venom alone can be drive enough to learn curing abilies at level 1.

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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam

Post by Xalzar » January 6th, 2018, 11:43 pm

I think the topic is slightly derailing. Unit discussions should continue in the "unit names" thread IMO (I think that thread will discuss more than just unit names at this point).

We should instead focus on trying to come up with a solution to the opinion split which this poll seems to not be able to resolve: Human (Dunefolk) or Dunefolk?

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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam

Post by Pentarctagon » January 6th, 2018, 11:52 pm

Xalzar wrote:I think the topic is slightly derailing. Unit discussions should continue in the "unit names" thread IMO (I think that thread will discuss more than just unit names at this point).

We should instead focus on trying to come up with a solution to the opinion split which this poll seems to not be able to resolve: Human (Dunefolk) or Dunefolk?
My thought on this is that "Human (Dunefolk)" gives a bit more of a hint regarding the why they aren't categorized with the rest of the Human units. Just "Dunefolk" is not quite as clear.
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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam

Post by tr0ll » January 7th, 2018, 6:02 am

The discussion in this topic so far has failed to make any argument that the Dunefolk are not human, though there is lots about being a distinct faction.
So i do not understand why leading poll item shows them as a distinct race :hmm: unless people dont like the two piece name as much and really want them to be exotic.
(edit) my point was sort of made just above while i was composing this. :oops:

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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam

Post by Vyncyn » January 7th, 2018, 7:28 am

From the previous thread:
Bitron wrote:
Vyncyn wrote:My proposal would be to divide the "human" race in a "human [Wesnoth]" and "human [Dune/Southern]" or something similar.
But I would be fine with leaving it as it is now (1 human race and 1 khalifate race, though the later one should be renamed).
The German translation is pretty much set up like that. Translated wordwise, in the help menu it is devided into "Human (Wesnoth)" and "Human (Khalifate)". I thought it is like that in most of the languages. Maybe I was wrong about that. Or in other words, in at least one language it is already implemented this way, so why not changing it like that.
So, yeah... like he said, the "human(dunefolk)" has already been done, just not in every language.

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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam

Post by Pentarctagon » January 7th, 2018, 7:34 am

Yeah, right now in English at least, it's just "Humans" and "Khalifate".
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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » January 7th, 2018, 3:33 pm

tr0ll wrote:So i do not understand why leading poll item shows them as a distinct race :hmm: unless people dont like the two piece name as much and really want them to be exotic.
Voting for "Dunefolk" doesn't necessarily mean voting for them to not be human. The race name could be just "Dunefolk" while the description makes it clear that they are human.
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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam

Post by Caladbolg » January 7th, 2018, 5:37 pm

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:I can see your point here, though I'd argue that you only got two out of three there - sure the elves probably have more plants and tools, but there's no particular reason to believe one or the other has more drive to learn healing arts. There are dangers in the desert that the elves need never worry about (such as dehydration, heat stroke, sunburn, etc); those alone could be quite a sufficient drive in my opinion.
You have a point there.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:Voting for "Dunefolk" doesn't necessarily mean voting for them to not be human.
Yeah, that's also how I understand the poll. Both Dunefolk and Human (Dunefolk) would mean that they are human but belong to a race of humans commonly known as Dunefolk. As far as I understand it, the divide is merely stylistic. The down side of Dunefolk is that the fact they're human would not be explicit in race name, but mentioned in lore. The down side of Human (Dunefolk) is that no other race name follows the same format and we'd probably need to change the race of loyalist humans to Human (Wesnoth).

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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam

Post by name » January 7th, 2018, 7:51 pm

Caladbolg wrote:The down side of Human (Dunefolk) is that no other race name follows the same format and we'd probably need to change the race of loyalist humans to Human (Wesnoth).
Many of those humans you would be grouping as "Human (Wesnoth)" are not politically or geographically a part of the kingdom of wesnoth.

Both outlaws and necromancers are certainly unaligned with the state and the number of humans of the same "type" living (in one era or another) in the northlands, elensfar, coastal islands, the green isle and the old continent could dwarf the number living within the borders of the kingdom.

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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam

Post by Caladbolg » January 7th, 2018, 8:26 pm

Cold Steel wrote:Many of those humans you would be grouping as "Human (Wesnoth)" are not politically or geographically a part of the kingdom of wesnoth.
:doh: Completely slipped my mind. On that note, is there some other name for humans? There were Wesfolk on the Green Isle which were treated at the very least as a different group/clan/culture from non-wesfolk... was there a name for non-wesfolk humans?

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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam

Post by name » January 7th, 2018, 8:39 pm

Caladbolg wrote:was there a name for non-wesfolk humans?
Islefolk. Though this name does not cover the parent culture of the islefolk that originally settled the green isle from the old continent and is likely the source of their (and wesnoth's and elensefar's and others') culture and technology too.

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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » January 7th, 2018, 9:11 pm

Cold Steel wrote:
Caladbolg wrote:The down side of Human (Dunefolk) is that no other race name follows the same format and we'd probably need to change the race of loyalist humans to Human (Wesnoth).
Many of those humans you would be grouping as "Human (Wesnoth)" are not politically or geographically a part of the kingdom of wesnoth.

Both outlaws and necromancers are certainly unaligned with the state and the number of humans of the same "type" living (in one era or another) in the northlands, elensfar, coastal islands, the green isle and the old continent could dwarf the number living within the borders of the kingdom.
I would disagree with this; these humans may not be politically aligned with the kingdom of Wesnoth, but they do have a common origin which supports them being grouped as "Human (Wesnoth)". Elensefar and such don't really matter much, since they use the same units as the kingdom, so you really only need to consider the outlaws; and the fact that they are outlaws is almost the key here. They are outlaws in the Kingdom of Wesnoth. They are Wesnothians who turned against the crown; that doesn't mean they are not Wesnothian.

Islefolk and wesfolk are (in my opinion) both totally unsuitable for the loyalists and outlaws, by the way. The former implies they live on an island; the latter implies they come from the west.
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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam

Post by name » January 8th, 2018, 2:11 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote: Elensefar and such don't really matter much, since they use the same units as the kingdom,
But so too did/does the green isle and very likely its own founding civilization on the old continent.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote: so you really only need to consider the outlaws; and the fact that they are outlaws is almost the key here. They are outlaws in the Kingdom of Wesnoth. They are Wesnothians who turned against the crown; that doesn't mean they are not Wesnothian.
That they live in the northlands under the knalgan alliance or elensfar under its own government does mean they are not wesnothians however. Different lands and different governments. Whether or not the crown wants to recognize them as separate nations or claim they are unruly law breakers changes little in "reality".
Celtic_Minstrel wrote: Islefolk and wesfolk are (in my opinion) both totally unsuitable for the loyalists and outlaws, by the way. The former implies they live on an island; the latter implies they come from the west.
They did live on an island and they did come from the west. You can argue that they no longer are in either region so we should no longer call them these things, but that is the same argument for no longer calling by the name "wesnothian" those who no longer live in wesnoth or follow her commands.

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