[mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race name
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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam
Detailed response to Celtic_Minstrel folded for thread readability:
Spoiler:
Last edited by name on January 2nd, 2018, 3:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam
In the last thread, someone said the race name might be used by the name generator for spawned units. So if dunefolk are listed as race human then they might receive pseudo-western-european-antiquity sounding names. Or the two might not be tied together at all, would have to check the sources.Pentarctagon wrote:unless the racename is used extensively elsewhere that I'm forgetting about,
Then I guess I will vote for Dunefolk and Jinn for the v1.14 release. Keep it vague and uncluttered looking for now.Pentarctagon wrote:what's being discussed in this thread is mostly limited to how to now categorize the Dunefolk units in the in-game help.
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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam
I guess I'll wrap my replies in a spoiler tag too to take up less space. (I'll even edit it into my previous post.)
I'm pretty sure we're going to be sticking to the Arabic-like names for the dunefolk. (And would be disappointed if we didn't.)
Spoiler:
The race name is not used by the name generator. The name generator is race-specific, indeed, but doesn't have anything to do with the name of the race.Cold Steel wrote:In the last thread, someone said the race name might be used by the name generator for spawned units. So if dunefolk are listed as race human then they might receive pseudo-western-european-antiquity sounding names. Or the two might not be tied together at all, would have to check the sources.Pentarctagon wrote:unless the racename is used extensively elsewhere that I'm forgetting about,
I'm pretty sure we're going to be sticking to the Arabic-like names for the dunefolk. (And would be disappointed if we didn't.)
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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam
The name generator that's currently used by the Khalifate(soon to be Dunefolk) is not something that I think needs to be changed.
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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam
I really don't want to quote a bunch just to talk about Cold Steels point number 3, but last I checked the completely lawful human loyalist faction has a neutral human unit called the mage. So we do have a faction that has same race units with different alignments.
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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam
The Mage is lawful, as are all of the Loyalist's standard recruits in the Default era; it's the Red Mage and its advancements that are neutral. The Elvish Shaman is also neutral.Deciton_Reven wrote:I really don't want to quote a bunch just to talk about Cold Steels point number 3, but last I checked the completely lawful human loyalist faction has a neutral human unit called the mage. So we do have a faction that has same race units with different alignments.
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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam
Eh, that's a bit shakier ground but it turns out to be no less true that the loyalists do have a neutral unit. In fact maybe even more prevalent that the normal mage being lawful looks so much more in common with the neutral red mages rather than the still lawful white mages, since there is also an argument that the differently aligned units in the Dunefolk "look to similar to tell the difference".
Or you can point to none other than me that confused all the brown cloaks as neutral as to why that might be bad. I'm sure I'd be able to correct myself pretty easily if I did end up in a game where I had mages again, since the sprites actually aren't the only source of information about a unit.
Or you can point to none other than me that confused all the brown cloaks as neutral as to why that might be bad. I'm sure I'd be able to correct myself pretty easily if I did end up in a game where I had mages again, since the sprites actually aren't the only source of information about a unit.
Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam
@Celtic_Minstrel -- responded to your points inside of the spoiler:
What I meant though, is each unit needs to specify in code (WML) which name generator to use. If this is specified at the unit or unit-line level then there is not an issue. If the name generator is specified at the race level then merging two races into one race will have the generator outputting the wrong type of names for some of the units.
Spoiler:
Pentarctagon wrote:The name generator that's currently used by the Khalifate(soon to be Dunefolk) is not something that I think needs to be changed.
The name generator does not need to be changed because it produces proper names for individuals. Only common names for unit types needs to be changed to translate into all languages.Celtic_Minstrel wrote:I'm pretty sure we're going to be sticking to the Arabic-like names for the dunefolk.
What I meant though, is each unit needs to specify in code (WML) which name generator to use. If this is specified at the unit or unit-line level then there is not an issue. If the name generator is specified at the race level then merging two races into one race will have the generator outputting the wrong type of names for some of the units.
Pentarctagon wrote:The Mage is lawful, as are all of the Loyalist's standard recruits in the Default era; it's the Red Mage and its advancements that are neutral.
After playing wesnoth for over a decade, I had no idea the red mage was neutral before now. I should say that yes, this is quite confusing. The red mage branch should really be made lawful for the sake of sanity.Deciton_Reven wrote:Or you can point to none other than me that confused all the brown cloaks as neutral as to why that might be bad. I'm sure I'd be able to correct myself pretty easily if I did end up in a game where I had mages again, since the sprites actually aren't the only source of information about a unit.
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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam
I'll probably answer your points in more detail a bit later, but... yes, the name generator is specified at the race level, so the dunefolk do need to be mechanically a separate race from the humans of Wesnoth. That doesn't mean they're not human, though.
Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam
I did propose the idea of different subspecies of human, or them and the wesnothians regarding themselves separately for cultural reasons.Celtic_Minstrel wrote:That doesn't mean they're not human, though.
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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam
So far it looks like "Human (Dunefolk)" is pretty heavily the preferred name. So unless something changes in the next few days(or if people would prefer a poll be done anyway), I'll create the pull request to change the Khalifate's faction and racename in master this weekend.
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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam
As promised, the responses to ColdSteel in a spoiler tag.
Spoiler:
Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:As promised, the responses to ColdSteel in a spoiler tag.
Spoiler:
How about creating such a poll which ends at or before that time?Pentarctagon wrote:So unless something changes in the next few days (or if people would prefer a poll be done anyway), I'll create the pull request to change the Khalifate's faction and race name in master this weekend.
Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam
This seems more like a question of balance, to be brought up later when the name discussions are done.Cold Steel wrote:Basically that is my point of contention-- I do not see how drakes (or saurians) are stronger in the desert than dunefolk in the least.
The melee attack is a flamethrower and seen in the sprite, the ranged attack is fire arrows.Cold Steel wrote:Well the naffat is strange in that it not only gets a ranged fire attack but its melee attack is fire based as well. The exact workings of its melee fire attack is also unexplained and undepicted by the sprite.
Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race nam
Balance probably will not help with this, since both drakes and dunefolk faction concepts are currently:Vyncyn wrote:This seems more like a question of balance, to be brought up later when the name discussions are done.Cold Steel wrote:Basically that is my point of contention-- I do not see how drakes (or saurians) are stronger in the desert than dunefolk in the least.
1. Mobility Focused
2. Alignment Flexible
3. Dominant On Sand
So they largely compete for the same multiplayer balance "turf". Balancing dunefolk to be weaker to drakes than they currently are would likely not involve weakening dunefolk dominance on desert terrains since this is fairly important to their survival against other factions, especially on smaller maps (which compensate mobility oriented drakes with more sand tiles, a balance mechanism the mobility oriented dunefolk take advantage of for the same reason).
A flamethrower is more of a ranged weapon though and unlikely to have an effective range any less than the orcish assassin's throwing knives or else you risk cooking yourself.Vyncyn wrote:The melee attack is a flamethrower and seen in the sprite, the ranged attack is fire arrows.
Further, melee attacks are automatically animated by the engine to show the unit charging forward at its target, which makes the naffat flamethrower gun attack look quite strange and unreadable (to me it looks like he just body slams his opponent and somehow that does fire damage). Yet disabling this animation for this one unit's melee attack would make it look like an ordinary ranged attack, so that really is not a good option.
This is why I think the naffat is a prime candidate for becoming a representation in the dunefolk faction of something from near eastern mythology (the earlier proposed fire jinn).