[mainline] Melee "marksman"

Brainstorm ideas of possible additions to the game. Read this before posting!

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Forum rules
Before posting a new idea, you must read the following:
Post Reply
User avatar
josteph
Developer
Posts: 738
Joined: August 19th, 2017, 6:58 pm

Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by josteph » March 16th, 2019, 8:46 am

"Parisian", after Paris who shot Achilles in the heel
"undodgeable"/"unblockable"
"bullseye"
"renowned"

User avatar
sergey
Posts: 436
Joined: January 9th, 2015, 9:25 pm

Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by sergey » March 16th, 2019, 10:26 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
March 16th, 2019, 12:56 am
sergey wrote:
March 15th, 2019, 7:43 am
"accuracy" is better than "accurate", since the later may be different depending on the wielder's gender, at least in some languages.
Doesn't the engine already support varying the name based on gender?
The wiki page https://wiki.wesnoth.org/AbilitiesWML says that the abilities can have gender-based names, but not the weapon specials. It seems like abilities are applied to units, which have a gender. But weapon specials are applied to attacks, which have no gender (or have always the same gender depending on the language). I think it is better to have weapon special describing the attack, rather than unit.

UPDATE. After some thoughts, perhaps we should focus on the English names and allow translators to do their job. The main reason why I though that "accuracy" is better than "accurate", since it sounds better to me in my native language.
Author of SP scenario Dragon Fight and SP campaign Captured by a Nightmare.
Created The Rise of Wesnoth (alternative mechanics) version of the mainline campaign.

Shiki
Developer
Posts: 271
Joined: July 13th, 2015, 9:53 pm
Location: Germany

Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Shiki » March 16th, 2019, 11:46 am

Thanks for bringing that up, somebody mentioned it once and it has been forgotten. I'm sure someone will implement genderspecific special names, at least if it's the outcome of the discussion.
Introduction to WML filtering and WML variables.

User avatar
Celtic_Minstrel
Developer
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » March 16th, 2019, 5:23 pm

  • Parisian - I doubt most people would get the mythological reference; plus, it's real-world mythology.
  • undodgeable/unblockable - same problem as "unerring", it gives the implication of 100% hit chance.
  • bullseye - only works for ranged attacks
  • renowned - doesn't really carry any implication of improved hit chance, and only a weak implication of great skill
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

User avatar
Pentarctagon
Forum Administrator
Posts: 4051
Joined: March 22nd, 2009, 10:50 pm
Location: Earth (occasionally)

Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Pentarctagon » March 16th, 2019, 5:36 pm

"accurate" or "precise" are still my preferences. Which one doesn't really matter to me though, especially given this topic has been discussed on and off for over a year now apparently.
99 little bugs in the code, 99 little bugs
take one down, patch it around
-2,147,483,648 little bugs in the code

User avatar
beetlenaut
Developer
Posts: 2389
Joined: December 8th, 2007, 3:21 am
Location: Washington State
Contact:

Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by beetlenaut » March 17th, 2019, 3:12 pm

Nothing discussed is as good as "marksman" for ranged. What would be the problem with having two terms? Marksman for ranged, and accuracy or whatever for melee? The help page could list both.

marksman (ranged) / accuracy (melee)
When used offensively, this attack always has at least a 60% chance to hit.
Campaigns: Dead Water,
The Founding of Borstep,
Secrets of the Ancients,
and WML Guide

User avatar
The_Gnat
Posts: 2073
Joined: October 10th, 2016, 3:06 am
Contact:

Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by The_Gnat » March 17th, 2019, 7:09 pm

That is another good alternative but it doesn't really solve the problem for drake breath or other attacks like that.

User avatar
beetlenaut
Developer
Posts: 2389
Joined: December 8th, 2007, 3:21 am
Location: Washington State
Contact:

Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by beetlenaut » March 17th, 2019, 7:41 pm

The_Gnat wrote:
March 17th, 2019, 7:09 pm
it doesn't really solve the problem for drake breath
I don't see the problem with drake breath. Presumably, some of the drakes are better at aiming their flames, making them harder to dodge. Marksman means good at aiming, so it seems to work just fine to me. However, we could also just put marksman / accuracy in the help file without identifying which is which, and you could use whichever you think fits best.
Campaigns: Dead Water,
The Founding of Borstep,
Secrets of the Ancients,
and WML Guide

User avatar
revolting_peasant
Posts: 128
Joined: May 29th, 2012, 5:45 pm

Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by revolting_peasant » April 6th, 2019, 7:20 pm

beetlenaut wrote:
March 17th, 2019, 3:12 pm
Nothing discussed is as good as "marksman" for ranged. What would be the problem with having two terms? Marksman for ranged, and accuracy or whatever for melee? The help page could list both.
The problem is that to be "accurate" means hitting the right place. This is relevant for ranged attacks and to a limited extent to melee attacks which pierce. Melee attacks like impact, cold, fire etc. are not about accuracy.

User avatar
Celtic_Minstrel
Developer
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » April 6th, 2019, 9:14 pm

While it's true that accuracy is less important for impact or magic attacks, that doesn't mean they won't benefit from accuracy. A mace will still hurt more if it strikes a vital area, for example. With cold or fire it's less clear, but in the specific case of the drake fire breath, there's an obvious interpretation: the marksman could mean they focus the flame into a narrower stream, thus hitting a smaller area with greater intensity. Of course, it's also a ranged attack, so maybe your complaint didn't cover it. For another example, consider a torch (melee fire) – while its greatest danger is surely the chance that you'll catch fire when struck by it, there's still a major difference between being struck in the face or just on the leg.
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

Wayirr
Posts: 71
Joined: February 11th, 2012, 3:42 pm

Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Wayirr » May 17th, 2019, 4:30 am

I think that probably we can leave it as it is. People do understand what marksman means, don't they? But it makes sense to add a translation helper comment to hint translators to use word, which fits both ranged and melee weapons, so that translators can use it if it exists for their language?

Also possible alternatives: sniper, dead eye, hitter. The latter one probably works for both melee and ranged.

User avatar
Celtic_Minstrel
Developer
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » May 29th, 2019, 2:29 am

"hitter" is a really terrible term. Yeah it could apply to either melee or ranged, but it just doesn't sound good.
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

User avatar
The_Gnat
Posts: 2073
Joined: October 10th, 2016, 3:06 am
Contact:

Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by The_Gnat » May 29th, 2019, 8:39 am

Wayirr wrote:
May 17th, 2019, 4:30 am
I think that probably we can leave it as it is. People do understand what marksman means, don't they? But it makes sense to add a translation helper comment to hint translators to use word, which fits both ranged and melee weapons, so that translators can use it if it exists for their language?

Also possible alternatives: sniper, dead eye, hitter. The latter one probably works for both melee and ranged.
Hi Wayirr, thanks for the suggestions! :)

Though I agree with Celtic that probably there aren't many possibilities that would be better than 'marksman', so it might as well be left.

User avatar
Celtic_Minstrel
Developer
Posts: 1527
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » May 30th, 2019, 12:17 am

I still think "accurate" or "precise" would be reasonable alternatives though.
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

User avatar
The_Gnat
Posts: 2073
Joined: October 10th, 2016, 3:06 am
Contact:

Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by The_Gnat » May 30th, 2019, 9:52 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
May 30th, 2019, 12:17 am
I still think "accurate" or "precise" would be reasonable alternatives though.
True, though with the removal of the marksman on the DF soldier melee there is now less reason to change it. :)

Post Reply