[mainline] Melee "marksman"

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Kingreaper
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[mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Kingreaper » December 7th, 2017, 7:01 pm

In standard meaning a marksman is defined as "a person skilled in shooting."

The Arif line in the Khalifate have marksman on melee attacks, which bugs me a bit. It's not a world-ending problem, but if others agree that it's an issue then we might as well look at how to resolve it.

It seems to me that the reason the Arif has Marksman is because the Khalifate need a good non-magical way to hurt high-defence units (like mountain dwarves or forest elves)

The options I can see:

1) Leave it as is.
Problem: It bugs me... and possibly other people too?

2) Change the name of the Marksman ability.
Problems: Breaks with the history of BfW; Marksman is a really great name for it on ranged abilities

3) Change the name of the Marksman ability for melee attacks only
Problem: Two names for identical abilities is inelegant.

4) Give the Arif line a new ability that serves the same purpose in a different way
Problems: Increased complexity for BfW; results in gameplay changes.

Of course, 4 is the largest of those options - there's a number of ways to go about it - but I think it would also be the best of them.

If there's a general desire for such a change I'm sure we can come up with a good alternative name/ability.

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Paulomat4
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Paulomat4 » December 8th, 2017, 11:00 am

Honestly, it has always bugged me as well. So much that I decided to introduce "accuracy" for melee marksmen in my UMC. I have also seen this on other occasions.
So, I'm personally a fan of option 2.
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Vyncyn
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Vyncyn » December 8th, 2017, 11:51 am

I'd prefer option 3 or 4, because "marksman" is indeed a very fitting name for ranged attacks.
3 might not be elegant, but we already use it for the "undead" and "mechanical" traits, so I don't see a big problem. "Weaponmastery" might fit too.
Option 4 is less likely to get mainlined because it might have balance issues. In my UMC I used specials like "always at least 50% hitchance" and "+10% hitchance"

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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Turuk » December 8th, 2017, 12:54 pm

Option 2 is not terrible as long as the name clearly gives the player the same connotation so that they know the ability is the same.

Option 3 might be the only viable route though, as I I cannot come up with a word that would fit both melee and ranged off-hand.

Outside of accuracy, what other name ideas do you have?
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Kingreaper
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Kingreaper » December 8th, 2017, 1:36 pm

Outside of accuracy, what other name ideas do you have?
From this thread:
Accuracy
Weaponmastery

My own prior thoughts:
Mastery
Precision
Duelist [problem being - there's a unit with the name that *doesn't* have the ability]

Ones that would work for a modified ability, but not just a renaming:
Certainty (always gets at least one hit when attacking - i.e. if the first of two misses, the second hits)
Engagement (When attacking both this unit and its opponent have a 60/70% chance to hit)

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Ravana
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Ravana » December 8th, 2017, 2:28 pm

Precision is 80% cth.

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Turuk
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Turuk » December 8th, 2017, 2:38 pm

Ravana wrote:Precision is 80% cth.
I know right? :lol:

Joking aside, that one has the most promise to be applicable to both melee and ranged, though it has less of a relevance to weaponry as Marksman does.

Mastery may be a better fit, particularly since it would be on leveled units that would have mastered that weapon type. :hmm:
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Vyncyn
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Vyncyn » December 8th, 2017, 8:31 pm

"Swordsmanship" might be a good name - as long as it's only used on swordfighters
Alternativley "proficiency" or "prowess" could work, but they sound a bit strange and very broad.

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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by name » December 8th, 2017, 8:42 pm

Kingreaper wrote: Precision
Should it be "Precision" or rather "Precise" ?
Turuk wrote:Mastery may be a better fit, particularly since it would be on leveled units that would have mastered that weapon type.
But is not the melee unit that launched this debate only a first level unit to begin with? ;)

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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Kingreaper » December 8th, 2017, 9:46 pm

Should it be "Precision" or rather "Precise" ?
No idea - there doesn't seems to be a definitive rule on that, as most attack keywords are actions while Marksman is an personal attribute.

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Turuk
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Turuk » December 8th, 2017, 9:51 pm

Cold Steel wrote:But is not the melee unit that launched this debate only a first level unit to begin with?
Bahhhhh. You're right. :P
Vyncyn wrote:Alternatively "proficiency" or "prowess" could work, but they sound a bit strange and very broad.
I do think 'Proficiency' would also be another option like 'Mastery' that could fit both.
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revolting_peasant
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by revolting_peasant » December 23rd, 2017, 12:29 am

It obviously has to be Option 3.

It will be basically like Dextrous vs Strong. Now, ok, I know what you're going to say - Strong is also +1 HP. So what? It's still essentially +1 damage per attack, for Ranged vs for Melee.

So - Marksman vs (choose word here).

The choice of an alternative term might be a little tricky though. A few ideas (**this was edited**):
  • Ninja
  • Mêleur (from French: A melee-person)
  • Wrangler (literally a "bickering disputant", but - why not? At least it won't be misinterpreted to mean something we don't want it to)
  • Deft
  • Adroit
  • Duelist (suggested already, and with the problem of the name conflict with Fencer line unit)
  • Master at Arms (name conflict with Fencer line unit)
Last edited by revolting_peasant on December 26th, 2017, 8:37 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Deciton_Reven » December 23rd, 2017, 2:47 am

revolting_peasant wrote:It obviously has to be Option 3.

It will be basically like Dextrous vs Strong. Now, ok, I know what you're going to say - Strong is also +1 HP. So what? It's still essentially +1 damage per attack, for Ranged vs for Melee.
Not really, Dextrous vs Strong have to be separate for 2 very good reasons. One they actually do different things. It's not 'increase damage by 1' but increasing a certain range by one, which is accented by the fact it's randomly generated and not available to all units. A weapon special like marksman has to deliberately be put on things so it doesn't require a separate but equal attitude.

I personally don't mind a 'man who hits all his marks' being able to do so in melee if that's how he wants to do so. It gets the point across just fine.

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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Transfermium » December 23rd, 2017, 3:15 am

revolting_peasant wrote:It obviously has to be Option 3.

It will be basically like Dextrous vs Strong. Now, ok, I know what you're going to say - Strong is also +1 HP. So what? It's still essentially +1 damage per attack, for Ranged vs for Melee.

So - Marksman vs (choose word here).

The choice of an alternative term might be a little tricky though. A few ideas:
  • Master at Arms
  • Deft
  • Adroit
  • Duelist (suggested already, and with the problem of the name conflict)
Don't we have a Master at Arms as the name of the Lv3 unit in the Fencer line?
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ElderofCheese
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by ElderofCheese » December 23rd, 2017, 3:19 am

It doesn't bug me.

Maybe a poll?
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