[mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by SigurdFireDragon » December 27th, 2017, 7:20 pm

I think the unit names currently listed in the in OP are good, I only have comments on a few
Hakim Names: Alchemist, Herbalist
Tabib Names: Thaumaturgist, Alchemist, Doctor, Scientist
Healer could also be a name option
I don't think doctor or scientist would work at all, I find it breaks immersion, as it seems too strong a reference to the modern world. I can't think of an example where fantasy in a medieval type period uses those words. Usually, it's something like healer, mage, or witch.
Tineen Names: Infernal
beetlenaut wrote:Those are the best suggestions I've seen for that line, but it should be "inferno"--the noun instead of the adjective (like all other unit names).
I agree with that. Also Infernal has demonic/underworld connotations, which may seem out of place, as there's nothing demonic about these units.
Rami Names: Archer, Hillrider, Horse Archer
Saree: Swiftrider
Jawal: Windrider
My preference is for Hillrider, I think most would expect an unmounted unit if they see the unit name 'Archer' absent of the image

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by mintleaf » December 28th, 2017, 3:33 pm

skeptical_troll wrote:
mintleaf wrote:Agreed. I always thought it was out of the question here and had been getting tired of arguing it.
If it is so, you might want to remove from the OP the part "What Kind of Peoples/Civilization", as it explicitly raises questions about the lore. If it is about the name, both 'Dunefolk' and 'Southerners' are vague enough that they don't imply anything about their background, except a generic connection with the desert.
My bad. In retrospect I find that I also came off as condescending in that comment. I should have specified, but that was directed at 1. the idea of a whole sprite and art overhaul, 2. adding units that aren't part of the current Khalifate and 3. changing the nature of race of the Khalifate itself (which may not be decided but seems to have reached a consensus).
SigurdFireDragon wrote:Healer could also be a name option
I don't think doctor or scientist would work at all, I find it breaks immersion, as it seems too strong a reference to the modern world. I can't think of an example where fantasy in a medieval type period uses those words. Usually, it's something like healer, mage, or witch.
Agreed, I will remove them.
SigurdFireDragon wrote:
beetlenaut wrote:Those are the best suggestions I've seen for that line, but it should be "inferno"--the noun instead of the adjective (like all other unit names).
I agree with that. Also Infernal has demonic/underworld connotations, which may seem out of place, as there's nothing demonic about these units.
Infernal is now accepted as a noun, but I do agree with the connotations. It's actually my preference to inspire that demonic feel, because they are after all the final unit in the line of fire troopers. Just as thunderers are associated with thunder even though it is just a hand cannon, I believe the power of the Infernal inspires awe, fear and traumatic nightmares of conflagration.
SigurdFireDragon wrote:Rami Names: Archer, Hillrider, Horse Archer
Saree: Swiftrider
Jawal: Windrider
My preference is for Hillrider, I think most would expect an unmounted unit if they see the unit name 'Archer' absent of the image[/quote]

While I personally prefer Hillrider because of the consistency, I believe that calling an unmounted unit a mere Archer says a lot more about the culture of the race than if we were to add Horse as a prefix. I find it flavorful, but I do see how it's unusual and stands out a bit too much. That being said, Hillrider is now bold instead of Archer.

These are all good and valid points. Thank you.

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Xalzar » December 28th, 2017, 6:51 pm

So, we are discussing names here then? I thought we were going to open a different topic, but I don't mind. ^_^

My thoughts about unit names:

Arif line:
Soldier: OK
Shieldbearer and Shieldmaster: maybe too much emphasis is put on the shield? After all, their main attack is still the sword. I'm saying this only to explore completely all the possible names. I like these names though.
Eternal: possible, I think this unit is one of those names which could be most influenced by the chosen race description for the Dunefolk/Southerners. Do they think their leader as immortal beings or something?
Spearbearer and Spearmaster: OK

Hakim line: this depends on what we decide the medicine practiced by these people is based on. Alchemy? Botany? Other? So...
Alchemist: OK if we go for "alchemy".
Thaumaturgist: only if we go for "faith-based medicine", since thaumaturgy involves miracles.
Other possibilities for both: Physician, Pharmacologist, Botanist, Herbalist
If we want to stay more vague and point out their role in the society, some possibilities are: Sage, Elder

Jundi line:
Warrior: normally is a term reserver for experienced fighters, which I think Jundis are not? Am I wrong?
Sword Dancer and Blademaster: OK, I like the "dancer" part in particular, it hints at the skirmish ability.
War Dancer: I'm not sure, "dancer" gives me the idea of someone particularly agile.
Warmaster: could be, I'm not sure how the whole society roles will be defined at the end.

Khaiyal line:
Piercer and Linebreaker: OK, but I think Lancer is not to be excluded, since we'll have a prefix too.
Sunderer: I think Cataphract would be the perfect name for this unit. They were heavy cavalrymen armed with lances after all, not bow (except the more rare Support Cataphracts)

Mixed cavalry line:
I don't have many idead but I think Cataphract does not belong here IMO. Sipahi would be perfect, maybe we can do an exception from the "understandable unit names" rule for this term.

Naffat line:
Combuster: OK
Firebrand: OK
Inferno/Infernal: I think not. They relate to the Hell, Underworld, not much directly to fire. I'd prefer Arsonist or something with Naphtha if we explain all the fire with that substance.

Rami line:
Hillrider: OK, perfect.
Swiftrider and Windrider: OK, they make sense.
The names don't immediately evoke the image of a horse archer but they are good. Maybe Sipahi could be used there.

On a slightly unrelated note: I think the most memorable original names (for lv 1 units) were Jundi and Naffat. If we keep some, those are good IMO.

Writing about names made me think that unit names and faction background should be discussed in parallel. :hmm:

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by ForestDragon » December 28th, 2017, 7:19 pm

throwing my 5 cents (ideas):
Rami, or his marksman lvl2: Cavalry Archer
Naffat line: Arsonist (as someone before me suggested) > Pyromaniac > Incinerator)
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Pentarctagon » December 28th, 2017, 7:31 pm

Xalzar wrote:So, we are discussing names here then? I thought we were going to open a different topic, but I don't mind. ^_^
The opening post states the things that will be discussed in this thread are:
1. Faction Name
2. Race Name
3. Unit Names
4. Unit Prefix
though at this point, starting a fresh thread for each of those topics wouldn't be a bad idea.
Xalzar wrote:Writing about names made me think that unit names and faction background should be discussed in parallel. :hmm:
And they can be - faction background and lore should just be in a separate thread, which can be linked to in the opening post. There are already 4 different things being discussed in this thread, and I don't think adding more topics is going to make this thread easier to follow.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » December 29th, 2017, 1:49 am

SigurdFireDragon wrote:I think the unit names currently listed in the in OP are good, I only have comments on a few
Hakim Names: Alchemist, Herbalist
Tabib Names: Thaumaturgist, Alchemist, Doctor, Scientist
Healer could also be a name option
I don't think doctor or scientist would work at all, I find it breaks immersion, as it seems too strong a reference to the modern world. I can't think of an example where fantasy in a medieval type period uses those words. Usually, it's something like healer, mage, or witch.
I kinda disagree about doctor. Scientist is definitely too modern, but doctors aren't as modern as you might expect. That said, if you want the connotation of a medical doctor, the more specific term "physician" might be better. So, the herbalist or alchemist upgrades to a physician.
Xalzar wrote:Inferno/Infernal: I think not. They relate to the Hell, Underworld, not much directly to fire. I'd prefer Arsonist or something with Naphtha if we explain all the fire with that substance.
I don't like Inferno/Infernal for the hellish connotation either; however, I also don't like Arsonist or Pyromaniac as the former has a criminal connotation and the latter suggests insanity.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » December 29th, 2017, 2:10 am

Since people are beginning to discuss the unit names, I'm going to put in my 2¢ on the names currently listed in the opening post.
mintleaf wrote: Arif Names: Soldier
Ghazi Names: Shieldbearer
Shuja Names: Shieldmaster
Khalid Names: Eternal, Khalid, Warmonger, Warmaster
I think the Arif name is a bit uninspired, but it does work. You should also consider swordsman and warrior as possible alternatives (though I notice warrior is also offered as a possible rename for the Jundi, which would rule out its use here). No particular objections to the Ghazi and Shuja names, though they feel a little generic (but maybe that's okay). The Khalid names, on the other hand... I think they're mostly terrible. My suggestions would be warlord, sultan, or emir.
mintleaf wrote: Mudafi Names: Spearbearer
Rasikh Names: Spearmaster
No particular objections here.
mintleaf wrote: Hakim Names: Alchemist, Herbalist, Healer
Tabib Names: Thaumaturgist, Alchemist
As I've already mentioned, I fully agree with alchemist or herbalist for the hakim. For the tabib, however, I think physician would be a better name. I also think that thaumaturgist is quite inappropriate, because nowadays it carries a distinct connotation of magic.
mintleaf wrote:Jundi Names: Warrior
Monawish: Sword Dancer
Mighwar: Blademaster
These names seem pretty decent.
mintleaf wrote: Muharib Names: War Dancer
Batal Names: Warmaster, Warmonger, Tarkan
War dancer seems fine, but the batal renames don't seem very good to me. I don't like any of the three suggestions. Unfortunately, I can't think of any good alternatives, either...
mintleaf wrote: Khaiyal Names: Piercer
Faris Names: Linebreaker
Mufariq Names: Sunderer
These names aren't bad per se, but they feel somehow awkward. I don't really understand what these units are supposed to be though, so I can't offer any good alternatives (apart from maybe "lancer" for the L1).
mintleaf wrote: Qanas Names: Beater, Batallier, Cataphract
Hadaf Names: Cataphract
Cataphract seems quite appropriate for the L3, but I don't understand the suggestions for the L2. They seem very lacklustre.
mintleaf wrote: Naffat Names: Combuster
Qatif-al-nar Names: Firebrand
Tineen Names: Infernal
The only one of these names that I like is firebrand (which in my opinion could also work for the L3). Combuster sounds too boring and clinical, and as previously discussed, infernal has the hellish connotation. I actually like the name naffat though, as it makes me think of naphtha, so maybe we could keep that name? Then we'd need another name for the L2 or L3.
mintleaf wrote: Rami Names: Hillrider, Archer, Horse Archer
Saree: Swiftrider
Jawal: Windrider
I think it's easier to lean into the scouting capability of these units, rather than their archery, when picking names. With this in mind, the currently-bolded names seem pretty okay. Maybe they could be improved on a little, but I don't have any particular suggestions at the moment.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Pentarctagon » December 29th, 2017, 4:12 am

It seems like it. There were a couple requests to do a 4th poll between Dunefolk and Dunelanders, but I'm not sure that makes a whole lot of sense at this point.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by The_Gnat » December 29th, 2017, 6:38 am

Yes i agree, and either way the prefix Dune would be used so it makes a very insignificant difference.


How do you propose we come up with the new names for the dunefolk units? Just discuss it until we come to some agreement?

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Pentarctagon » December 29th, 2017, 7:53 am

To me, the best way to do this would be to get the faction settled in this thread, then make two separate threads specifically for the race name and the unit prefix+names. Those threads would then have all the options people had come up with here, plus a few days for anyone to throw in any new ideas, and from then on there would be no new options added. If discussion leads to a consensus, then that consensus can be used. If not, there can be more polls and a decision can be reached that way. But if any decision is ever going to be made, then there can't just be an open ended discussion - otherwise it's more likely than not that the discussion will drag on and eventually fizzle out without any changes being decided on.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Aldarisvet » December 29th, 2017, 9:12 am

I find this vote strange for now because I suspect that most voters have no idea that khalifate can be both southerners and dunefolk at the same time.
Southerners is a good name for a multiplayer faction, it is a good name for them for obviously Wesnoth-centered conflict. It is how them can be generally categorized.
Dunefolk is a good name for a nation, it even can be a self-name, a name of how them call themselves. It is the same category as names 'elves', 'orcs', 'dwarves' and so on. It is a perfect name for a unit prefix. It does not matter really in this case if dunefolk are a humans or different humanoid race, it is a unit prefix that a player can see the most in the game, something that characterizes 'the faction' in most. But for me would be stupid to name the multiplayer faction 'dunefolk' because it would be as stupid as naming loyalists as 'humans' or rebels as 'elves'. Opposite, would be stupid to have Southerners as unit prefix, because 'Southerners Hillrider' would sound sux whenever 'Dunefolk Hillrider' sounds good.

If we vote for the multiplayer faction, we must first describe what are requirements for the name of the multiplayer faction, given we already agreed that such name for a multiplayer faction as 'Drakes' is bad because this 'multiplayer faction' consists from two 'factions' as drakes and saurians. Obviously a multiplayer faction is something more general than names of factions that are included in it.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Vyncyn » December 29th, 2017, 10:25 am

Before we even decide on the unit names, shouldn't there be a discussion whether the lineup needs to be changed?
Personally I have no problem with the current lineup, but since there were some mentions of adding new units or replacing old ones...

Aldarisvet wrote:Opposite, would be stupid to have Southerners as unit prefix, because 'Southerners Hillrider' would sound sux whenever 'Dunefolk Hillrider' sounds good.
We don't need the whole faction name as prefix. "Southern Hillrider" or "Dune Hillrider" would both work. Or we can use two prefixes e.g. "Dune Soldier and "Dunefolk Hillrider", since Dune-Hill sounds strange.

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Pentarctagon » December 29th, 2017, 4:01 pm

Aldarisvet wrote:If we vote for the multiplayer faction, we must first describe what are requirements for the name of the multiplayer faction, given we already agreed that such name for a multiplayer faction as 'Drakes' is bad because this 'multiplayer faction' consists from two 'factions' as drakes and saurians. Obviously a multiplayer faction is something more general than names of factions that are included in it.
This thread started nearly a month ago, and there have already been three polls done over the course of the last two weeks. It's a bit late to be saying "if we vote for a multiplayer faction".
Vyncyn wrote:Before we even decide on the unit names, shouldn't there be a discussion whether the lineup needs to be changed?
Personally I have no problem with the current lineup, but since there were some mentions of adding new units or replacing old ones...
I think it would make more sense to decide on names for the existing units, and then after that determine if the faction's lineup should change. While that does mean there's a chance a unit might ultimately be dropped after being renamed, I would rather not make the unit renaming dependent on balancing the faction.

edit-
The Dunefolk vs Dunelander poll is now up. It will run for two days, after which I consider the Khalifate faction renaming question to be settled and will open new threads for the unit names and race name questions.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » December 29th, 2017, 4:16 pm

Personally I'd rather stick with Khalifate as the name of the nation in lore. Dunefolk is good as both a race name and an MP faction name.

I'm also generally against dropping any units, though maybe I could be convinced in some cases.
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