[mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

[BTIsaac]

There's one thing we need to consider. Unless I misunderstood something, historically, humans didn't identify themselves collectively as human. Their word for "human" usually refferred to people of their own culture. And I do believe this is the source of confusion regarding giants in the bible, as well as the source of many humanoids from various folklore - hungarian scholars speculate that their ancestors were the original Ogres for instance. I know it sounds a bit risqe but what if the Wesnoth humans and the southern humans were so foreign to one another that they classify themselves differently even though they're still both technically human? Just a thought.

[Bitron]

It happens quite a lot in games that the term "race" doesn't mean a different species. Different types of humans with different gameplay aspects are quite often differed into different races, gameplay wise. Though, I am not really a fan of this usage. We have the same race, humans, but different cultures, which is pretty much what I'd suggest. Human (Wesnoth) and Human (Dunefolk/Khalifate/*otherame*) have speparated entries in the help menu.
Another thing I want to mention is that races and factions are not the same. Yes, the current wesnoth factions mostly feature one specific race, but it is not what the factions are about. factions don't represent races, but different groups, alliances and cultures and also different play styles. The current Khalifate might be humans, but as faction, they are much different from the loyalists. I think that is more important than the fact that they share the same species.

[Transfermium]

Just my $0.02 about 'race':
Isn't the race mechanic just a way to differentiate different sets of names?
Whatever the Dunefolk/Khalifate are, I don't think they would name themselves stuff like "Addyn" and "Konrad" like the Wesnothians. Ergo, they shouldn't share the same 'race' category as the Loyalists, unless if it is agreed upon that those two vastly different cultures who haven't been in contact for at least a long time share the exact same names.

[Sapient]

My proposal would be to divide the "human" race in a "human [Wesnoth]" and "human [Dune/Southern]" or something similar.
But I would be fine with leaving it as it is now (1 human race and 1 khalifate race, though the later one should be renamed).

The German translation is pretty much set up like that. Translated wordwise, in the help menu it is devided into "Human (Wesnoth)" and "Human (Khalifate)". I thought it is like that in most of the languages. Maybe I was wrong about that. Or in other words, in at least one language it is already implemented this way, so why not changing it like that.

How about listing it in help as "Human" and "Human (Dunefolk)", with the default human subgroup being implied but not stated explicitly?

[name]

Since the Khalifate have a fundamentally different movetype than Wesnothian humans, I wonder if it would be confusing for a newer player.

Good point, I got so preoccupied with their alignment differences I forgot dunefolk also have a unique movetype from humans.

I would be in favor of keeping the two races separate. This way, the lore need not be tied-in with Wesnothian history. The drakes, dwarves, elves, goblins, orcs, saurians, trolls, and even woses are all highly anthropomorphic, so including a new humanoid race wouldn't be out-of-place, I think. This way their movetype is also distinguished from the other races.

Indeed, if dunefolk were not human, it would clear up the issue of the wesnoth founding people being the first humans on the great continent. The dunefolk could instead be their own species (race) native to the great continent's interior and/or southern biomes. They could be older than the dwarves or elves even.

I personally enjoy when a single race is allowed more than 1 culture. All humans are Wesnonian is kinda limited in view and suffocates trying to do something different with a race later if it was already shot down previously "because it doesn't exist already". If there was ever a time for establishing a healthy precedent it's probably now.

That is not true for the set of mainline multiplayer factions at all. There could not be a worse time to start introducing new rules and standards because the delicate balance is so mature this will probably be the last faction to be added to default era. Trying to begin a change of direction now would leave you with the original six factions in the original style plus the new misfit faction.

The complexity of balancing multiplayer goes up with the square (or greater) of the total number of factions in an era. If for some unclear reason we wanted more factions based on sub-races with less remarkable physical differences between them (that is- elves and night elves, wesnoth humans and dunefolk humans, orcs and dorcs, etc.) that needed to start happening 13 or 14 years ago, back when the original six factions were still being solidified.

If you just want different cultures of the same species for campaigns, the way to do that is to have either a culture that reuses some of the same units from a multiplayer faction (like the eastern horse clans from heir to the throne) or uses campaign-defined custom units (like the quenoth elves from under the burning suns).

[Deciton_Reven]

I personally enjoy when a single race is allowed more than 1 culture. All humans are Wesnonian is kinda limited in view and suffocates trying to do something different with a race later if it was already shot down previously "because it doesn't exist already". If there was ever a time for establishing a healthy precedent it's probably now.

That is not true for the set of mainline multiplayer factions at all. There could not be a worse time to start introducing new rules and standards because the delicate balance is so mature this will probably be the last faction to be added to default era. Trying to begin a change of direction now would leave you with the original six factions in the original style plus the new misfit faction.

The complexity of balancing multiplayer goes up with the square (or greater) of the total number of factions in an era. If for some unclear reason we wanted more factions based on sub-races with less remarkable physical differences between them (that is- elves and night elves, wesnoth humans and dunefolk humans, orcs and dorcs, etc.) that needed to start happening 13 or 14 years ago, back when the original six factions were still being solidified.

If you just want different cultures of the same species for campaigns, the way to do that is to have either a culture that reuses some of the same units from a multiplayer faction (like the eastern horse clans from heir to the throne) or uses campaign-defined custom units (like the quenoth elves from under the burning suns).

The precedent is being set for campaigns, not other factions (though, yeah that too if something unpredictable happens down the road). If the core gameplay disallows radically different cultures within species then it gets "fanfic-y" to ignore that within campaigns, no matter how well done. And I mean, the Khafilate do have remarkable differences between them, so having them as humans shows that with a little skill you can make 2 things that are "the same" very different and enjoyable and unique in there own way without having to make them 'different'. In such a situation familiarity with one will promote trying the other which is something the Khafilate might need?

It seems like the biggest argument for making them a non-human race is numbers, which is silly. Footpads aren't a different species than Heavy Infantry, so people already understand a movetype is not species specific but rather a fighting style. The second seems to be making the lore 'easier' I guess? But less interesting. Finding a new group of people and them being like "We're to elves what elves are to you" is kinda boring. Having them be humans that Wesnoth doesn't want to see as humans (or vice versa), is a far more interesting situation to be in. That's a First Contact story that's campaign worthy. Where did these nonWesnonian humans come from is a mystery you want to solve that doesn't have an easy answer that can be summed up by any child of the species in less than 10 words, and not having an easy answer is interesting. At least that's how I feel.

[Xalzar]

Indeed, if dunefolk were not human, it would clear up the issue of the wesnoth founding people being the first humans on the great continent. The dunefolk could instead be their own species (race) native to the great continent's interior and/or southern biomes. They could be older than the dwarves or elves even.

Islefolk (in particular the Prince of Southbay and his men) were the first IIRC. Then of course the rest of Islefolk and the allied Wesfolk escaped from the Green Isle and finally founded Wesnoth, first human kingdom on the Great Continent.
It can still be that way.
Dunefolk could have migrated in later times from the Old Continent, maybe from the south, they had quite a few years to develop cities and expand until they finally reach the outskirts of Wesnoth. This could be a version of the story.
Else, they could have been already there, in the southern deserts, and the Elves simply hadn't met them yet before meeting the humans from the Green Isle. So for them they were the first humans.

I personally enjoy when a single race is allowed more than 1 culture. All humans are Wesnothian is kinda limited in view

I agree. Also, with your latest post.

That is not true for the set of mainline multiplayer factions at all. There could not be a worse time to start introducing new rules and standards because the delicate balance is so mature this will probably be the last faction to be added to default era. Trying to begin a change of direction now would leave you with the original six factions in the original style plus the new misfit faction.

What change of direction are you talking about? Representation of fantasy races?
Besides, the major reason new factions are being added at snail pace is low manpower in the gameplay balance compartment. It's a heavy task but possible (let's consider also that balance will never be perfect and there is no reason for it to be such, since the game is not an e-sport).

The complexity of balancing multiplayer goes up with the square (or greater) of the total number of factions in an era. If for some unclear reason we wanted more factions based on sub-races with less remarkable physical differences between them (that is- elves and night elves, wesnoth humans and dunefolk humans, orcs and dorcs, etc.) that needed to start happening 13 or 14 years ago, back when the original six factions were still being solidified.

If there were 8 different factions of only Elves, but with diverse gameplay and flavour, I'd accept that. It's an extreme obviously.
Saying that the Dunefolk are identical to Loyalist only because they are both human is quite absurd. They play differently.
Taking humans and saying "these are not humans" is lame at best IMO.

If you just want different cultures of the same species for campaigns, the way to do that is to have either a culture that reuses some of the same units from a multiplayer faction (like the eastern horse clans from heir to the throne) or uses campaign-defined custom units (like the quenoth elves from under the burning suns).

I understand your point, but the main reason to introduce a new faction is to provide new gameplay possibilities. The lore expansion comes later (eventually, maybe, ...see Drakes). Quenoth Elves could be easily introduced in MP if they provide interesting and different gameplay options.
Now, I don't know why the Khalifate has been chosen over other factions, but clearly its gameplay was considered interesting and different enough.

[name]

The precedent is being set for campaigns, not other factions (though, yeah that too if something unpredictable happens down the road).

This topic is about a mainline multiplayer faction and its constituent parts, campaigns are a secondary consideration at best. And campaigns rely heavily on custom collections of units from disparate multiplayer factions, units unused in multiplayer factions and altogether custom units.

Footpads aren't a different species than Heavy Infantry, so people already understand a movetype is not species specific but rather a fighting style.

There are faster units and slower units of the same general move type, often simulating and visually represented by the amount of armor the unit wears.

But which types of terrains are obstacles to movement and/or sources of cover is very species (race) specific. Elvish fighters are slower than elvish archers because they clearly wear more armor, but the movement and cover advantages are otherwise highly similar. This makes it clearer which unit can and cannot do what. Having humans that are as good on sand as lizard races, even though the rest of humans suffer horribly on sand, breaks this clear mechanic completely.

Dunefolk could have migrated in later times from the Old Continent, maybe from the south, they had quite a few years to develop cities and expand until they finally reach the outskirts of Wesnoth. This could be a version of the story.
Else, they could have been already there, in the southern deserts, and the Elves simply hadn't met them yet before meeting the humans from the Green Isle. So for them they were the first humans.

It is a lot of explaining around (if not outright retconning) just to say- "more humans arrived here later somehow". If they were a native species from another part of the continent, that attention could put on who and what they are rather than how their existence here does not-not make sense.

What change of direction are you talking about? Representation of fantasy races?

Yes. Suddenly changing focus from fantasy races (that is, radically different species of intelligent creatures) to historically inspired human cultures is a massive shift of style and design. Maybe too elves should just be humans living out in the woods and dwarves the same for mountains. Drakes could just be people gliding around on da vinci ornithopters they have made for themselves... etc.

Besides, the major reason new factions are being added at snail pace is low manpower in the gameplay balance compartment. It's a heavy task but possible (let's consider also that balance will never be perfect and there is no reason for it to be such, since the game is not an e-sport).

The multiplayer aspect of the game is an e-sport and balance is a real concern for many as you would thus expect. Balance is a very slow iterative experimental process with any amount of manpower.

If there were 8 different factions of only Elves, but with diverse gameplay and flavour, I'd accept that. It's an extreme obviously.

That is legitimate and sometimes I feel the same. But that is what UMC is for.

Mainline is for when someone wants much higher levels of consistency and dependable quality. And a mainline faction is what this thread is all about.

(Also keep in mind that a version of khalifate/dunefolk that does not fit mainline standards but stays closer to their original vision can continue to exist inside the UMC ecosystem.)

Saying that the Dunefolk are identical to Loyalist only because they are both human is quite absurd. They play differently.

So then they should look and feel equally as different.

Taking humans and saying "these are not humans" is lame at best IMO.

Agreed, but all base sprites have been replaced and radically altered for the other mainline factions before. The same could and would happen for dunefolk units, so they would eventually look however the lore says they should.

I understand your point, but the main reason to introduce a new faction is to provide new gameplay possibilities. The lore expansion comes later (eventually, maybe, ...see Drakes).

Adding a new race (species) only allows wider game play possibilities. Copying one we already have (humans) limits what you can reasonably get away with. It makes the game play less potentially diverse.

[SigurdFireDragon]

If it comes down to it, I'd like to see a vote between Dunefolk & Dunelanders, as others have suggested.

[name]

Please run the Dunefolk versus Southerners poll separately and first though:

• Dunefolk
  Southerners

Then if Dunefolk wins, that would be the time to run Dunefolk versus Dunelanders:

• Dunefolk
  Dunelanders

Otherwise you risk spliting the "Dune" vote so that Southerners wins unfairly.

[Pentarctagon]

If that's what is wanted, then a fourth poll can be done. Just keep in mind that a decision does need to be made eventually

[Pentarctagon]

The third poll is now up. It will run for 5 days, and each person can now only choose one option.

[Kwandulin]

I still vouch heavily for "Dunefolk". We already have Northerner, Wesnothians (Wesnoth=West+North) and now Southerners? How bland can it get?

[Celtic_Minstrel]

Apparently I'm late to the party, but I have a few things I want to say...

1. First of all, I like the name "Khalifate". I don't think it's a problem that it has that religious connotation. I think it would be nice to keep the name around in the lore, at least. We already have a "Loyalists" faction rather than a "Kingdom of Wesnoth" faction, so keeping the term "Khalifate" to refer to the nation state inhabited by the dunefolk seems like a reasonable idea.
   
   I suppose Sultanate or Emirate would be okay too, but they somehow both lack the ring of Khalifate.
2. My impression of the khalid unit was that it's supposed to represent a leader figure. As a result, I'd suggest "sultan" and "emir" as possible renames. Another possible rename would be "hero", though that's kinda more bland.
3. I do like the naffat line names, and as Whiskeyjack mentioned, I think keeping some of those names should be an option in the polls.
4. I think the name Dunefolk is best used for both the faction name and the race name; however, the race description should make clear that these are humans. I disagree with the people suggesting the faction should be partially or wholly non-human.
5. I'd like to see some female units associated with the faction, whether they're female variations of some of the existing units or uniquely female lines. For existing units, I think the hakim and tabib might be a good one to get female variations. I also noticed the original poster suggested that there's a hint of Mongolian inspiration in the faction, and if I recall correctly, the Amazons of Greek myth are thought to reference people of the same area, so perhaps the light cavalry archer line could get female variations. I don't have any specific ideas for uniquely female units.
6. I like the idea of associating jinn with the faction. They don't necessarily need to be part of the faction; they could just be additional inhabitants of the desert who have an uneasy relationship with the dunefolk.

[Vyncyn]

I'd like to see some female units associated with the faction, whether they're female variations of some of the existing units (the hakim/tabib might be a good one to get female variations? ) or uniquely female lines.

This gave me an idea. How about replacing the falcons with harpies? I do like the idea of trained falcons, but harpies would give the faction more of a fantasy touch, female units, and stronger all-terrain units. The falcon line is relatively weak compared to other flying units.