[mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

[BTIsaac]

Hm. Apparently it does. But it looks like "Emirate" doesn't.

[Aldarisvet]

Hm. Apparently it does. But it looks like "Emirate" doesn't.

Emirate or Khalifate looks the same if we would name Wesnoth kingdom as just 'Kingdom'.
It is totally ok if Southerners would be ruled by caliphs or emirs but their southern entity must have some name. A fantasy name that would not copy a name of some real state.

[BTIsaac]

Well Calyph apparently really is a religious title, but Emir is a military one. As far as faction names go, I think it works, and giving an actual name for their country is a different issue. I mean loyalists don't have "wesnoth" in their name either.

[mintleaf]

I agree with avoiding a religious connotation. It has too many real world relatioships. If I may add an aside, I think Caliphate would have been better than Khalifate because the former only describes while the latter is stylized to language.

Well Calyph apparently really is a religious title, but Emir is a military one. As far as faction names go, I think it works, and giving an actual name for their country is a different issue. I mean loyalists don't have "wesnoth" in their name either.

One reason I want to avoid names like Caliph and Emir are because they have an Arab connotation, whereas words like Loyalist and Kingdom have no cultural connection. There are loyalists everywhere, it could describe a group in Eastern Europe or India, just as Kingdom is any domain with a monarch. A Caliphate or Emirate immediately suggests something Arab or Muslim.

BTW, the original post is now edited and more complete. If anybody has concerns or feels like their ideas are unfairly presented or not presented at all then let me know. Just as important are formatting issues and whether my explanations are clear and concise. Please give me feedback.

[BTIsaac]

Well the way I see it, the only real cultural connection with Emir is a linguistic one. The Northern Alliance has a Lord Protector, and unless I misread something, someone specifically made a reference to Cromwell when explaining the rationale behind the name.

Besides, it's not like Jinn aren't part of middle eastern mythology. That too has some level of cultural connotation.

Still, I'm not going to split hairs if people insist on avoiding it.

[Turuk]

Many thanks to mintleaf for consolidating and editing the post at the beginning, it is very helpful.

First step, faction name - if you have any and all ideas floating around, throw them out now as I will make the poll for that aspect soon, following the model proposed by Sapient. There is no requirement to provide a rationale for your name choice or choices, but feel free if you think it would help.

[Sapient]

After doing a little research, I edited my Page 2 post to move Sons of Fatima into the "maybe too realistic" section. (I am sure I am revealing my ignorance of islamic culture here.)

Also, while I was considering to propose a name that sounds similar to pay tribute to the epic of Hamza, after further consideration, I don't know enough ( or care enough ) to be the right person to make such a proposal. So you can forget about that.

[Whiskeyjack]

As always: Let me speak the cautioning, conservative voice.

I am currently missing Sand Kingdom and Southern Kingdom on the front page, though I'd always take the plural Kingdoms in those cases. Also: Why did the Xalıdı turn into Xalid, dropping the last character (I also actually liked the version with dot-less ı). Kingdoms could in every case be replaced with Tribes and Nomads could also be Nomad Tribes (Nomad Kingdoms or some such would also be an interesting concept with weaker our-world-stereotype connotations).

Except for perhaps Xalıdı I wouldn't vote for any of those options though, as I don't think it's a good idea to cement the ruling structure this offhandedly without a decision about politics and culture (which would preferably be implemented through a new campaign).

For a similar reason I don't like the option of Jinn. The last times the Khalifate was discussed, they were taken as a strictly anti-magic culture (contrasting this with alchemists as a (culturally perceived) non-magical profession could be quite interesting). Similar to the idea of a overtly religious/monotheistic culture, this would make a great contrast to standard Wesnoth factions. I have not yet heard a single argument why this concept should be dropped while discussing possible magic connections (though a certain Jinn(-blood) influence in an anti-magic people would make another very interesting dynamic - assuming the discussed concept of Jinns as more magical than physical beings - though such people would never refer to themselves with, or accept others using, the term Jinn).

Because those are good options that limit future (mainline) world building development the least I'd prefer Xalıdı, Dunefolk or Sandfolk, though I'd be open to other options, if the implications they have are discussed and agreed upon as background cannon beforehand.

[Xalzar]

I've thought about it and tried to come up with new names or merging already proposed names:

-Sons of the Sands
pros: it highlights the close relationship which the people of this faction most surely have with their territory;
cons: it's a bit long (but then Alliance of Knalga is not so short either), maybe it doesn't mesh too well with the other faction names (it seems more like a campaign name maybe?);

-Dune...
...Colonies? Provinces? City-States? Tribes? Warriors?
pros: depending on their background, the name decribes in two words where they are and hints at their state organization / culture (it surely describes this faction better than Loyalists and Rebels describe theirs for sure). Plus, I like the fact that the word "Dune" hints at their preferred terrain, sand and hills (and the terrain which merges them is the sandy hills- dune terrain);
cons: someone could say it's a bit uncreative? But then maybe the faction name it's not the right place for being too much creative;

Do you agree with my pros and cons? Let's see if these name gain any traction. No hard feelings if they are discarded, we are brainstorming now.

All in all, I think the faction name will end be something a bit generic, and it's not a problem. The other faction names are such (maybe with - again - the exception of Alliance of Knalga), and they are easily memorizable and serve their purpose well.

@Whiskeyjack:
-I like Sand Kingdoms, but I was cautious about proposing it because I think there is the will to make their state organization diverse from the Wesnoth Kingdom, so I don't know if they'll end as kingdoms as well (at least, in name). Good name though.
-I have a problem with how "Xalidi" is spelled, with special letters I mean. I think this name is better reserved for use in campaigns, to specify how they call themselves, or what a sub-group of them is called etc....
-I also don't like Jinn, the main reason being that it's a disorienting name for the faction: when you see "Undead" you know what to expect, but "Jinns" are quite different in the audience's imagination.

[Can-ned_Food]

Quick thoughts which may not be all too important: the reason someone would use words like ‘emir’ or ‘caliph’ is because their default language lacks words that convey all the necessary information — a.k.a. the assimilation of loanwords. If you simply wish to call them Princedomists (Emirate) or Followers of The Successor (Kalīphı), then you can do so.
There are pros and cons to each. Going for simpler, more common–use language requires you to be more inventive and to rely less on aesthetic similarities; contrawise, use of suffixes or roots that carry with them an entourage of historical or mythological associations can help to establish the similarity or connection in the minds of players, readers, viewers — what–have–you.

That's the thing, of course. The ‘Loyalists’ don't call themselves by a word of english. They call themselves something in the Wesnothian language. The word ‘Loyalist’ ought to be considered a translation which does the best of conveying to the audience the essence and content of the previous Wesnothian word.

regarding the Xalıdı

The spelling could be Xalidı, but I would like request that you guys withdraw it from consideration here. I've decided that I'd like to use it for a faction that exists farther from Wesnoth than the faction which is being discussed here. All I ask is that, when you guys do come up with a cohesive backstory for this faction, that it allows me some adjacent historical and territorial space in which to develop my later era for TXE.

[max_torch]

The last times the Khalifate was discussed, they were taken as a strictly anti-magic culture

I like the idea of the Khalifate having a strong anti-magic/anti-supernatural sentiment which means that in campaigns/storylines they get disgusted or even hostile towards mages, necromancers, trolls, druids, etc. Maybe they are a people that have witnessed magic being greatly abused and have learned to fear and hate it.

[Can-ned_Food]

As it is now, my favor lies on this faction being described as Nomads of the Dunes or Dunes Tribes, and actually being a loose association that share more in their mimetic culture than they do policy or decisionmakers.

Whiskeyjack, what do you think of my idea that we split off the anti-magic and monotheism to a larger, more established and settled faction that exists in the arid but fertile southlands? They would be the ones to take the set of backstory themes which the Khalifate have now — improving, embellishing, and refining, of course, — while the units/khalifate/ designs would be reserved for these Dunes people. The Dunes people could have a more superstitious and mystical worldview.

P.S. Do people think that this Dunes faction would be better in a new era, or would it be better added to the single default BfW one?

[Whiskeyjack]

Whiskeyjack, what do you think of my idea that we split off the anti-magic and monotheism to a larger, more established and settled faction that exists in the arid but fertile southlands? They would be the ones to take the set of backstory themes which the Khalifate have now — improving, embellishing, and refining, of course, — while the units/khalifate/ designs would be reserved for these Dunes people. The Dunes people could have a more superstitious and mystical worldview.

In all honesty, I'm not sure if it makes sense to take the juicy bits of the discussion for your faction while we overwrite current Khalifate with some Dunes guys

Aside from that I was just throwing out thought's/ideas for the sake of discussion and, as I said, personally I'm actually against using any of that while we have not established a solid base as cannon.

Also, I'm reluctant to support anything as final that would clash with Kwandulin's Oath of Allegiance, as that is a finished, polished full length Khalifate campaign with a giant amount of work put into it (I don't think many - if any - mainline campaigns had as much work done when they were mainlined as Kwandulin did on this one) which was, as far as I can tell, based heavily on the results of the 2015? Khalifate background discussions. Though I have to confess I have a personal bias here, as I assisted with some gameplay feedback and dialogue suggestions.

[name]

Similar to the idea of a overtly religious/monotheistic culture, this would make a great contrast to standard Wesnoth factions.

I would argue that monotheism actually makes them a good deal less unique, particularly when comparing them with loyalists. In fact I would say the biggest thematic issue with the khalifate is that they feel relatively redundant with the loyalists. Both are:

1. Almost exclusively human. (mermish and falcon are only exceptions)
2. Almost exclusively history rather than mythology inspired and mundane. (mage is only exception and a small exception)
3. Monotheistic with distinctly abrahamic feel. (christian and islamic, arguable near identical religions)

The last times the Khalifate was discussed, they were taken as a strictly anti-magic culture ... I have not yet heard a single argument why this concept should be dropped while discussing possible magic connections ...

I can put forward a couple strong arguments against them being anti-magic, in addition to the one I wrote above.

1. It makes them not more but less flavorful and unique.
Because there are plenty of races already that either cannot or do not bother to use magic- dwarves, orcs, drakes, woses, goblins, naga, monsters, wild animals and most humans. You might be able to say a faction without magic is a unique idea if the game did not already have the northerners and knalgan alliance, but it does.

2. It makes them a bit insane.
Willfully not practicing magic in real life is rational because magic does not actually work in our reality.
Willfully not practicing magic in irdya's reality is like not using technology in ours.

[Turuk]

To address a number of ideas in one post....

For all of the debate about Caliph and Emir, I am not inherently opposed to the connotation behind either. While I understand the logic behind choosing a word that does not have cultural connotation, I do not think that either of the two are anything but titles used throughout centuries that could be found equally in a fantasy setting as some other titles have been.

That's the thing, of course. The ‘Loyalists’ don't call themselves by a word of english. They call themselves something in the Wesnothian language. The word ‘Loyalist’ ought to be considered a translation which does the best of conveying to the audience the essence and content of the previous Wesnothian word.

A valid point, as we may be spending too much time caught up in the concepts behind a word.

It sounds as if the consensus is that Faction Name is highly dependent on the Race decision - if they are going to be another culture of humans, the Faction Name should be highly distinctive as it is now. If they are not going to be humans, it can be more generic.