[mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity
Yeah, discussions are awesome but at some point we need to decide.Pentarctagon wrote: The Dunefolk vs Dunelander poll is now up. It will run for two days, after which I consider the Khalifate faction renaming question to be settled and will open new threads for the unit names and race name questions.
Define Khalifate, what should be its meaning in the world of Wesnoth? Try to convince me it's worth keeping a name with such strong real-life religion connotations.Celtic_Minstrel wrote:Personally I'd rather stick with Khalifate as the name of the nation in lore. Dunefolk is good as both a race name and an MP faction name.
I'm also generally against dropping any units, though maybe I could be convinced in some cases.
Also, I agree that the faction lineup should not be modified if not for resolving gameplay/balance issues.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity
I suppose it could refer to a city-state ruled by a "khalif", but I'm more interested in using it to describe the entirety of their society, which Oath of Allegiance apparently portrays as three semi-independent city-states. By the previous definition, you'd have to call this "khalifates" rather than "khalifate". Then again, that might not be so bad either... "The Khalifates of the Southern Dunes".Xalzar wrote:Define Khalifate, what should be its meaning in the world of Wesnoth? Try to convince me it's worth keeping a name with such strong real-life religion connotations.
Personally I don't think the real-life religious connotations matter as long as we don't import those connotations into the world of Irdya. Based on the unit lineup, there's no evidence that the faction is strongly religious (though admittedly there's not really any counterevidence either). If we just take care to use the word "khalifate" in-universe as you'd use "sultanate" or "emirate" in the real world, I don't think there's any issue.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity
Correct me if I am wrong, but since the Lv4 Arif line unit, which seems to be representative of the Dunefolk ruling caste, is named 'Khalid', wouldn't the correct name be a 'Khalidate'?
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity
Incinerator seems like it could work for a lvl 2 or 3 NaffatForestDragon wrote:throwing my 5 cents (ideas):
Rami, or his marksman lvl2: Cavalry Archer
Naffat line: Arsonist (as someone before me suggested) > Pyromaniac > Incinerator)
Sounds reasonable.Celtic_Minstrel wrote:...I kinda disagree about doctor. Scientist is definitely too modern, but doctors aren't as modern as you might expect. That said, if you want the connotation of a medical doctor, the more specific term "physician" might be better. So, the herbalist or alchemist upgrades to a physician.
I think all the Khalifate unit names need to change from what they are currently. I took a look at other languages (French, Spanish, German, Polish, etc) for how the unit names are translated. It looks like they are not. The words have meanings in Arabic, so in essence, this is a situation where content is translated in one language (Arabic) and remains untranslated in all other languages. This is a departure from how all other game content is handled and I consider this a situation that needs fixing.Some people wrote:...we should keep some of the existing names...
This. Content for the game should be made Wesnoth's own and fit as part of an immersive world. Good works of fiction do this (ie, Tolkien, Frank Herbert's Dune, A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones etc.)Cold Steel wrote:...Pure unembellished Khalifate would best fit into a no-fantasy-or-magic historical era in the UMC ecosystem, like the "18th Century Warfare Era" but for the medieval period.
I think only removing the term Khalifate from faction and race name would not fix the strong real-world connotation problem, so I'm in favor of removing it completely. It seems self-evident from this thread and previous threads that using the term Khalifate is immersion-breaking. I don't see the need to have a word to describe the entirety of their society in the lore, but I think Sultanate would do the job without immersion-breaking real-world connotations.Celtic_Minstrel wrote:I suppose it could refer to a city-state ruled by a "khalif", but I'm more interested in using it to describe the entirety of their society, which Oath of Allegiance apparently portrays as three semi-independent city-states. By the previous definition, you'd have to call this "khalifates" rather than "khalifate". Then again, that might not be so bad either... "The Khalifates of the Southern Dunes".Xalzar wrote:Define Khalifate, what should be its meaning in the world of Wesnoth? Try to convince me it's worth keeping a name with such strong real-life religion connotations.
Personally I don't think the real-life religious connotations matter as long as we don't import those connotations into the world of Irdya. Based on the unit lineup, there's no evidence that the faction is strongly religious (though admittedly there's not really any counterevidence either). If we just take care to use the word "khalifate" in-universe as you'd use "sultanate" or "emirate" in the real world, I don't think there's any issue.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity
I am also somewhat skeptical that we could redefine "Khalifate" for Wesnoth even if it was decided we should try. Taking something that means the nation is led by the successor to the Islamic prophet Muhammad and trying to say that it means something different in Wesnoth's case just seems unlikely to work. You can't really not import existing meanings and connotations for words like that.SigurdFireDragon wrote:I think only removing the term Khalifate from faction and race name would not fix the strong real-world connotation problem, so I'm in favor of removing it completely. It seems self-evident from this thread and previous threads that using the term Khalifate is immersion-breaking. I don't see the need to have a word to describe the entirety of their society in the lore, but I think Sultanate would do the job without immersion-breaking real-world connotations.Celtic_Minstrel wrote:I suppose it could refer to a city-state ruled by a "khalif", but I'm more interested in using it to describe the entirety of their society, which Oath of Allegiance apparently portrays as three semi-independent city-states. By the previous definition, you'd have to call this "khalifates" rather than "khalifate". Then again, that might not be so bad either... "The Khalifates of the Southern Dunes".
Personally I don't think the real-life religious connotations matter as long as we don't import those connotations into the world of Irdya. Based on the unit lineup, there's no evidence that the faction is strongly religious (though admittedly there's not really any counterevidence either). If we just take care to use the word "khalifate" in-universe as you'd use "sultanate" or "emirate" in the real world, I don't think there's any issue.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity
Yes i agree, i think it would be best if we leave the word "Khalifate" behind us and similarly dismiss all the ideologies that go with it.Pentarctagon wrote:I am also somewhat skeptical that we could redefine "Khalifate" for Wesnoth even if it was decided we should try. Taking something that means the nation is led by the successor to the Islamic prophet Muhammad and trying to say that it means something different in Wesnoth's case just seems unlikely to work. You can't really not import existing meanings and connotations for words like that.
Also i think that at this stage we should not remove nor add any units to the Dunefolk faction but instead focus on renaming the units otherwise we will just make a mess. Not now but later balances and unit changes should be considered.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity
In OoA are three city states, that are each ruled by a khalid. Before the story takes place, those three city states were united and ruled over by another city state, K'thar. That was due to each city state sending their former ruler to the great capitol, so eventually the southern deserts were governed by a trinity of kings. It has been destroyed since and the three kings have been locked up in an astral prison since. In OoA, you have to hinder them from returning.Celtic_Minstrel wrote:I suppose it could refer to a city-state ruled by a "khalif", but I'm more interested in using it to describe the entirety of their society, which Oath of Allegiance apparently portrays as three semi-independent city-states. By the previous definition, you'd have to call this "khalifates" rather than "khalifate". Then again, that might not be so bad either... "The Khalifates of the Southern Dunes".Xalzar wrote:Define Khalifate, what should be its meaning in the world of Wesnoth? Try to convince me it's worth keeping a name with such strong real-life religion connotations.
So both "khalifate" or "khalifates" would have make sense, depending on which time it'd base on.
Other than that, there are already some alternative khalifate sprites by sleepwalker(minor edits by me). So in case we want to change the faction, we already have quite a bit of ressources to do so. At least in OoA, the desert people do have some magical stuff.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity
The final poll has completed! Dunefolk is the Khalifate's new faction name. I will be creating threads for the race name and unit prefix+names shortly.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity
For MP, would the faction's name be just "Dunefolk"? It could be something like "Dune Khalifate" or "Dunefolk Khalifate", the same way there's the "Knalgan Alliance". I don't think keeping it a "khalifate" would be such a stretch in fantasy terms. I think Sultanate is kind of the same thing as khalifate in terms of immersion (though I personally don't think they are immersion-breaking, caliphates and sultanates are related in terms of historical meaning). This is what Wikipedia says about "sultanate":
It could also be because of the negative experiences they had with magic, if zookeeper's explanation is used, but that's not incompatible with a religious-driven distrust for magic, since one thing could have lead to the other.
Or, one more idea, they are atheists (it would be quite original in terms of depicting an Arabic fantasy land) and that's one of the reasons they're against magic, they feel it's something spiritual, unexplained by science, and way too unpredictable to accept and use. There could, however, be a deep, well-kept secret of kings/sultans/khaliphs getting tempted by magic and summoning jinns to achieve power.
Change makes people uneasy, particularly if they have a reason to - if those changes can have dangerous side-effects. Necromancy and magic-driven lust for power are the price Wesnoth pays to have magic as a mainstream part of their culture.
The Dunefolk might feel that it pays off a lot more to abolish magic althogether. And also, many societies make bad choices all the time, so even if it's not justified, that doesn't stop them, nor makes it immersion breaking, for them to be Wesnoth's only anti-magic faction. It would bring a lot of diversity to the world, it makes sense in context, and it gives the faction more uniqueness than it otherwise would have.
My favorite explanation for their origin is zookeeper's. I think it has a whole lot of potential for campaigns and to be developed further, it's pretty exciting from a storytelling/originality point of view and it explains why they might not like magic and why they're culturally different from the rest of the factions.
Has their story been decided yet?
I know I'm a bit late to the discussion, but even though the word "caliphate" means "a state under the leadership of an Islamic steward with the title of caliph" (taken from Wikipedia), etymologically, I think it can be used with a less specific meaning. Personally, I think it gives more flavor to the faction than the standard "Kingdom" or something similar.Originally, it was an Arabic abstract noun meaning "strength", "authority", "rulership", derived from the verbal noun سلطة sulṭah, meaning "authority" or "power". Later, it came to be used as the title of certain rulers who claimed almost full sovereignty in practical terms (i.e., the lack of dependence on any higher ruler), albeit without claiming the overall caliphate, or to refer to a powerful governor of a province within the caliphate.
So, basically, if "khalifate" is used, it's either going to be as a realm under the ruling of a successor/steward or of a king chosen by a God. Are the Dunefolk, in Wesnoth, supposed to be religious, or has that not been decided yet? They don't like magic, maybe that could be why, it goes against their religion's teachings. Religion is nothing new in fantasy.The term caliph derives from the Arabic word khalīfah, which means "successor", "steward", or "deputy" and has traditionally been considered a shortening of Khalifat Rasul Allah ("successor of the messenger of God"). However, studies of pre-Islamic texts suggest that the original meaning of the phrase was "successor selected by God".
It could also be because of the negative experiences they had with magic, if zookeeper's explanation is used, but that's not incompatible with a religious-driven distrust for magic, since one thing could have lead to the other.
Or, one more idea, they are atheists (it would be quite original in terms of depicting an Arabic fantasy land) and that's one of the reasons they're against magic, they feel it's something spiritual, unexplained by science, and way too unpredictable to accept and use. There could, however, be a deep, well-kept secret of kings/sultans/khaliphs getting tempted by magic and summoning jinns to achieve power.
Just my two cents, but if the Dunefolk come from a significantly different place, wouldn't that be justification enough for them to be significantly different from the high-fantasy factions? It would make a lot of sense that, sooner of later, a group of people would decide to abolish magic, the same way there are societies on 21st-century Earth that are skeptical of modern technology.SigurdFireDragon wrote:Content for the game should be made Wesnoth's own and fit as part of an immersive world. Good works of fiction do this (ie, Tolkien, Frank Herbert's Dune, A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones etc.)
Change makes people uneasy, particularly if they have a reason to - if those changes can have dangerous side-effects. Necromancy and magic-driven lust for power are the price Wesnoth pays to have magic as a mainstream part of their culture.
The Dunefolk might feel that it pays off a lot more to abolish magic althogether. And also, many societies make bad choices all the time, so even if it's not justified, that doesn't stop them, nor makes it immersion breaking, for them to be Wesnoth's only anti-magic faction. It would bring a lot of diversity to the world, it makes sense in context, and it gives the faction more uniqueness than it otherwise would have.
My favorite explanation for their origin is zookeeper's. I think it has a whole lot of potential for campaigns and to be developed further, it's pretty exciting from a storytelling/originality point of view and it explains why they might not like magic and why they're culturally different from the rest of the factions.
Has their story been decided yet?
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity
Nope. Currently their race description is quite literally:Kasdel wrote:My favorite explanation for their origin is zookeeper's. I think it has a whole lot of potential for campaigns and to be developed further, it's pretty exciting from a storytelling/originality point of view and it explains why they might not like magic and why they're culturally different from the rest of the factions.
Has their story been decided yet?
This race does not have a description yet.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity
Thank you for the analysis of the term "khalifate". That pretty much reinforces my feelings on the matter. I would still prefer to keep the term "Khalifate" (possibly pluralized) as the name of the nation state that the dunefolk inhabit.
This phrase really bugs me. Science doesn't explain things except as a side effect. Science is a method of inquiry. In a world with magic, there's no reason why you wouldn't be able to apply the scientific method to magic; and provided magic is self-consistent and predictable, you'd get the same sorts of results that are obtained by science in the real world. (If magic is unpredictable or inconsistent, I'm not sure how science would fare, but my impression of Wesnoth magic is that it is neither of these.)Kasdel wrote:unexplained by science
Yeah, and this might also work well if a campaign like Oath of Allegiance went mainline. I'd like to think they're not ignorant of magic; they just choose not to use it.Kasdel wrote:There could, however, be a deep, well-kept secret of kings/sultans/khaliphs getting tempted by magic and summoning jinns to achieve power.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity
You seem to have missed what I was getting at when making that statement. Dunefolk coming from a different place is justification for them being different from Wesnothians/Loyalists. It is NOT justification for the faction having a complete LACK of recognizable fantasy elements. No flying carpets, no jinn, nothing from 1001 Arabian Nights, no ANYTHING.Kasdel wrote:Just my two cents, but if the Dunefolk come from a significantly different place, wouldn't that be justification enough for them to be significantly different from the high-fantasy factions? It would make a lot of sense that, sooner of later, a group of people would decide to abolish magic, the same way there are societies on 21st-century Earth that are skeptical of modern technology.SigurdFireDragon wrote:Content for the game should be made Wesnoth's own and fit as part of an immersive world. Good works of fiction do this (ie, Tolkien, Frank Herbert's Dune, A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones etc.)
I think the whole 'no-magic' thing should be throw out. It's not canon anyway, as it's not in the game. For example, with it thrown out it becomes much easier to add jinn or flying carpets, such as:
The lore to add a jinn can be simple to nonexistent for the time being, after all, the explanation for Merfolk in the Loyalist faction is simply that they are allied with Wesnoth in some campaigns. The same can be true for the Jinn and Dunefolk. The lore can be added later.
If a Flying Carpet line is added, it can simply be that the Jinn contributed their magic to help the Dunefolk to produce them.
YesKasdel wrote:For MP, would the faction's name be just "Dunefolk"?
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity
And that in turn is something that really bugs me about the dunefolk's puritanical no-magic policy in a world where magic is quite real.Celtic_Minstrel wrote:This phrase really bugs me. Science doesn't explain things except as a side effect. Science is a method of inquiry. In a world with magic, there's no reason why you wouldn't be able to apply the scientific method to magic; and provided magic is self-consistent and predictable, you'd get the same sorts of results that are obtained by science in the real world. (If magic is unpredictable or inconsistent, I'm not sure how science would fare, but my impression of Wesnoth magic is that it is neither of these.)Kasdel wrote:unexplained by science
If the dunefolk are a truly rational, scientifically minded people, they would discover magic and use it with wisdom. That they willfully and irrationally turn their backs on something this useful makes them seem like the stereotypical backwards religious people who think technology is a work of evil, in the real world, only for wesnoth's universe where magic fills a similar role.
This.SigurdFireDragon wrote:Dunefolk coming from a different place is justification for them being different from Wesnothians/Loyalists. It is NOT justification for the faction having a complete LACK of recognizable fantasy elements. No flying carpets, no jinn, nothing from 1001 Arabian Nights, no ANYTHING.
Indeed, I never understood where this expectation came from that it is the mainline default era's fantasy universe that should adapt to this one puritanically historical UMC faction rather than the other way around. UMC campaigns go through major changes after being mainlined to better fit the quality and consistency of mainline content, why should a multiplayer faction be any different?SigurdFireDragon wrote:I think the whole 'no-magic' thing should be throw out. It's not canon anyway, as it's not in the game. For example, with it thrown out it becomes much easier to add jinn or flying carpets,
Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity
AFAIK religion was a subject to avoid in Wesnoth. I don't know if the rule is now abolished.Kasdel wrote:So, basically, if "khalifate" is used, it's either going to be as a realm under the ruling of a successor/steward or of a king chosen by a God. Are the Dunefolk, in Wesnoth, supposed to be religious, or has that not been decided yet? They don't like magic, maybe that could be why, it goes against their religion's teachings. Religion is nothing new in fantasy.The term caliph derives from the Arabic word khalīfah, which means "successor", "steward", or "deputy" and has traditionally been considered a shortening of Khalifat Rasul Allah ("successor of the messenger of God"). However, studies of pre-Islamic texts suggest that the original meaning of the phrase was "successor selected by God".
It could also be because of the negative experiences they had with magic, if zookeeper's explanation is used, but that's not incompatible with a religious-driven distrust for magic, since one thing could have lead to the other.
The only exception is in UtBS,
UtBS spoilers:
Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity
Ekhm A New Order, its the most religion influenced campaign out there.
Also many could draw parallels between the religion featured there and Islam, which I honestly find quite amusing.
Also many could draw parallels between the religion featured there and Islam, which I honestly find quite amusing.