[mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

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What should the faction name be for the Khalifate?

Poll ended at December 15th, 2017, 1:06 pm

Dunefolk
30
24%
Dune (Tribes/Kingdom)
11
9%
Khalifate
11
9%
Nomad (Tribes/Kingdom)
10
8%
Sandfolk
8
6%
Sons of the Sands
6
5%
Sons of Zamarkand
5
4%
Southerners
20
16%
Southern Kingdom
5
4%
Sultanates
11
9%
Xalid
8
6%
 
Total votes : 125

Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Postby GunChleoc » December 5th, 2017, 1:02 pm

How about "Sand" as a prefix?
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Postby Turuk » December 5th, 2017, 1:13 pm

The_Gnat wrote:
Turuk wrote:In changing the nomenclature to have it fit more easily into Wesnoth, would you also edit the descriptions accordingly? Some of the new names mildly alter the connotation conveyed by the previous name.

I know the guy who did some of the originals, only reason I ask. ;)


Their is already a project to remake the Khalifate, I believe these efforts should be combined! Have a look at this github project. His goal is to make a new balanced version of the Khalifate.

Since it is already a project to revise the Khalifate I believe this is a good place to start,rather than making separate projects.

(I am a contributor to this github project and will make a new branch for these name changes once I here back from mintleaf about my suggestions)



My comment was tongue in cheek as I worked with the original creator during his process and wrote/revised some of the descriptions at the time based on his concepts for the units. I am familiar with what the intentions were behind the current names, but am on board with the process of changing them as deemed necessary to make them fit more conceptually into Wesnoth.

All of the factions have undergone this process at some point or another in order to have them fit more properly with the game.

Can-ned_Food wrote:Though refining and balancing the function of a unit_type should occur simultaneously with its name, such a dance usually occurs in discrete steps. First you name the thing, then come up with a set of attacks and such, then revise the name, et c.


It is commendable that you are taking the step at all - often too many avoid the work entirely because they are not willing to break the work out into steps and work through the entire process.


As far as the 'Dune' and 'Sand' comments, if there are enough viable options we can always put into a vote at the top of the thread to get community input, if the author would like.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Postby mintleaf » December 5th, 2017, 1:36 pm

Wow! Am I delighted to see that this thread has blown up, especially after a few days of no replies. Before I do a proper read-through of all the comments and edit the original post, I want to expound a bit on my vision. My interpretation of this faction's image is based loosely on the Byzantines (secrets and fire), Mongols (versatile units with good mobility around rough terrain), and the Islamic Golden Age (artistry and craft in every aspect of life).

Whether they be the Sand Kingdoms or the Dune Kingdoms (I love these suggestions and prefer them over mine), I want to make sure these names do the identity justice. So I agree with some of the previous posters that names like Bruisers and Mercenaries don't quite fit the image in my mind. I want the units of this faction to be skillful and graceful, hence my repeated use of Dancer and Master. I stand by the use of Alchemist and Thaumaturgist. These evoke the science and craft of the Islamic Golden Age, and feel in line with my idea of a thriving desert society, not a barbaric one.

Keep in mind with prefixes like Sand or Dune, we don't have to worry about repeating names too much. While it is more interesting to have unique names entirely, use of archaic synonyms and forced pseudo-words is not as desired. At the same time, I relish the fact that the prospective Dune Archer or Sand Archer (Rami) is on a horse. Naming this unit this way instead of (prefix) Horse Archer says a lot more about the identity of this faction.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Postby Kingreaper » December 5th, 2017, 1:46 pm

I don't like the suggested Hakim line, Thaumaturgy is generally the study or practice of magic (whether arcane magic or divine miracles) - and they very specifically aren't magic.
Alchemists are quite a powerful concept, and do fit very well, so I'd move that up to L2, leaving L1 open - and Herbalist describes that stage perfectly IMO. so here's my version:

ImageImage
Herbalist < Alchemist
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Postby mintleaf » December 5th, 2017, 1:58 pm

Kingreaper wrote:I don't like the suggested Hakim line, Thaumaturgy is generally the study or practice of magic (whether arcane magic or divine miracles) - and they very specifically aren't magic.
Alchemists are quite a powerful concept, and do fit very well, so I'd move that up to L2, leaving L1 open - and Herbalist describes that stage perfectly IMO. so here's my version:

ImageImage
Herbalist < Alchemist

I like this as well. However, I'm still inclined towards my own interpretation but would definitely let a vote decide this in the future. The word alchemy to me suggests just a hint of magic all the same, and in my imagination most uninitiated commoners would confuse science and magic. Just as Dwarvish Gunners are more aptly called Thunderers. The thunderous sound of their weaponry inspires awe and fear, and merely calling a unit a Gunner would not evoke that effect.

edit: Besides, the Hakim's L1 +8 heal is pretty astounding to say the least, and I believe that deserves a provocative enough name.

edit2: Tabib means Doctor of sorts, so that might be another possibility as well.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Postby Turuk » December 5th, 2017, 2:14 pm

mintleaf wrote:I like this as well. However, I'm still inclined towards my own interpretation but would definitely let a vote decide this in the future.


It might be best to either approach this as addressing one line at a time or to keep all of the proposed changes in the original post as reference, edited as decisions are made and marked as open, in progress or complete.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Postby mintleaf » December 5th, 2017, 2:25 pm

Turuk wrote:
mintleaf wrote:I like this as well. However, I'm still inclined towards my own interpretation but would definitely let a vote decide this in the future.


It might be best to either approach this as addressing one line at a time or to keep all of the proposed changes in the original post as reference, edited as decisions are made and marked as open, in progress or complete.


Thanks. I haven't yet contributed but this is something I believe makes Wesnoth better. And developers like you inspire me. I'll get to it then, and come up with a more legible format.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Postby Turuk » December 5th, 2017, 3:28 pm

mintleaf wrote:I haven't yet contributed but this is something I believe makes Wesnoth better.

I agree, it’s the true value of having this community and I will always chip in to help those that step up. :)

mintleaf wrote:I'll get to it then, and come up with a more legible format

I am looking forward to the process.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Postby Kwandulin » December 5th, 2017, 6:34 pm

Both Southerners and Dune Kingdom sound great to me
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Postby Xalzar » December 5th, 2017, 7:03 pm

Since I had been involved in Khalifate matters before, I'm glad to see this subject has surfaced again and the fact that this time it has been met with very much less drama. I'll be sure to follow the development of this project closely. ;)
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Postby Can-ned_Food » December 6th, 2017, 3:07 am

mintleaf wrote:The word alchemy to me suggests just a hint of magic all the same, and in my imagination most uninitiated commoners would confuse science and magic.

Hah! You do know the origin of the word “alchemy”, yes? :P
If not, then let it suffice to say that any culture even loosely based on the characteristics of what you called the Islamic Golden Age would do well to use the word ‘alchemy’.

I have one other question which it seems that nobody has addressed: Do you guys not want to call the faction the ‘Xalıdı’ or anything like that? You'd prefer to go with Sand or Dune? Vis–à–vis Sandpeople or Duneizens — or, anything much, much better.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Postby mintleaf » December 6th, 2017, 4:21 am

Can-ned_Food wrote:Hah! You do know the origin of the word “alchemy”, yes? :P
If not, then let it suffice to say that any culture even loosely based on the characteristics of what you called the Islamic Golden Age would do well to use the word ‘alchemy’.

Of course!
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Postby Grandos » December 6th, 2017, 6:03 am

Regarding the Khaiyal Line, renaming one of the units (probably the one you have as Sunderer) to cataphract (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cataphract) might be a good idea. Also, I think the "arif" and "jundi" lines should be consistent, name wise. So arif can be "soldier", LVL 2 in arif line can be Shieldbearer and Spearbearer, LVL 3 proposals the same. I think the LVL 4 should remain "Khalid" as default, because Khalid is apparently a famous Khalifate leader they name generals after going by lore.
For the jundi line, I'd rename Tarken to Warmaster.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Postby Pentarctagon » December 6th, 2017, 7:24 am

FWIW, I do like the "Dune" option. Xalıdı as a faction name does definitely have an interesting ring to it too though.

Another option to consider as well, is that the Khalifate don't currently have a race description yet, so the faction could be named the "Dune Kingdom" or "Sand Kingdom" or whatever is ultimately decided, and the Xalıdı used as the name of the ruling family or group within the kingdom.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Postby Sapient » December 6th, 2017, 7:42 am

So, is this policy no longer in effect?
viewtopic.php?p=584614#p584614

If not, here is a reminder of some of the choices that were proposed earlier. I would consider most of these better than Southerners or Sand people. ;)

a) Maybe too realistic:
- Sultanate
- Emirate
- Saracens
- Rashidun / (e.g. Rashidi Fighter,Etc.)
- Osmanlis
- something that sounds like Sassanid (e.g. Wassanid)
- Sons of Fatima

b) More in the fantasy vein:
- Sons of Zamarkand
- Xalıdı (already has a fork)
- ??? something that evokes Hamzanama

A note on that last one. Considering that the Hamzanama epic was highly influential on the development of the Khalifate, it might be useful to consult that work when considering appropriate unit lines, etc. I myself know nothing about it, other than what I just read on wikipedia-- it does feature physicians and astrologers.
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