[mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

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Xalzar
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Xalzar » December 13th, 2017, 10:09 pm

Can-ned_Food wrote:Moreover, they fight best during the liminal conditions at either dawn or dusk, corresponding to the time when desert temperatures are the most tolerable."
That's not entirely correct. Only some units are liminal, the rest are lawful.

Btw: how is this difference in alignment explained? It's understandable that saurians and drake have different alignments in the same faction, and same can be said about other examples in other factions... But why some of these humans fight better in twilight rather than day? Maybe the liminal alignment reflects an unruly nomadic lifestyle while lawful units are from major settlements? (this hypothesis is partially supported by the chaotic alignment of outlaws)

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Vyncyn » December 13th, 2017, 10:20 pm

Xalzar wrote: Btw: how is this difference in alignment explained?...

Maybe the liminal alignment reflects an unruly nomadic lifestyle while lawful units are from major settlements? (this hypothesis is partially supported by the chaotic alignment of outlaws)
Yeah that's basically the explanation. Lawful units from the cities and more civilised, liminal units in desert. It doesn't work to a 100% imo. Hakim for example could be a lawful unit too, so maybe it's also because of balancing.

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Crow_T » December 13th, 2017, 11:59 pm

The Southern Legions has been in my head for a while. Dune Walkers has a bit of mystery to it if people insist on Dune as a prefix. Legions of Twilight.

"Those Who Shall Not Be Named" is probably the best :lol:

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by name » December 14th, 2017, 12:23 am

Xalzar wrote:Only some units are liminal, the rest are lawful.

Btw: how is this difference in alignment explained? It's understandable that saurians and drake have different alignments in the same faction, and same can be said about other examples in other factions... But why some of these humans fight better in twilight rather than day?
This is another elegant wesnoth precedent broken by keeping the dunefolk so overly human. The faction's many-alignment-ness is much better illustrated by making it multi-racial, with each race having one particular alignment.

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Pentarctagon » December 14th, 2017, 12:55 am

Xalzar wrote:
Can-ned_Food wrote:Moreover, they fight best during the liminal conditions at either dawn or dusk, corresponding to the time when desert temperatures are the most tolerable."
That's not entirely correct. Only some units are liminal, the rest are lawful.

Btw: how is this difference in alignment explained? It's understandable that saurians and drake have different alignments in the same faction, and same can be said about other examples in other factions... But why some of these humans fight better in twilight rather than day? Maybe the liminal alignment reflects an unruly nomadic lifestyle while lawful units are from major settlements? (this hypothesis is partially supported by the chaotic alignment of outlaws)
In the sorts of deserts the Khalifate are from, my understanding is that the days are really hot and the nights are really cold. So from that, it could just be that those are the times and conditions they're most used to.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Turuk » December 14th, 2017, 2:52 pm

SigurdFireDragon wrote:I think there’s some slight drift off topic starting to occur.
Let’s keep this simple.
I would like to see this done in time for 1.14
All of this being sorted and into 1.14 is my focus for driving this discussion forward. It does not have to be 100% perfect, but I would like to see the faction, race and unit names solidified. The balance component would not be so readily addressed.

To all of the comments about units, I like the unit names as they are now, but also understand the value of simplicity and consistency so am open to whatever works best.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Temuchin Khan » December 14th, 2017, 9:17 pm

In the past, I've always argued for keeping the Khalifate's name as it is. I could, however, get to like the name "Dunefolk."

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by BTIsaac » December 16th, 2017, 12:20 pm

Yeah, but as someone pointed out, Caliph is an actual religious title in Islam, and not a general term. It would be like the Mage of Light upgrading to a Pope or something. A bit out of place for a fantasy setting.

Hm. Come to think of it, Mal Hekuba's unit type is 'Chaos Cardinal'. Weird.

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by mintleaf » December 17th, 2017, 10:13 am

This isn't the current issue being discussed, but I changed my suggestions for the-
Naffat Line
ImageImageImage
Naffat Names: Combuster
Qatif-al-nar Names: Firebrand
Tineen Names: Infernal
What do you guys think about these unit names? We can discuss this while waiting for the poll to be parsed by the heads.

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Vyncyn » December 17th, 2017, 10:23 am

mintleaf wrote:What do you guys think about these unit names? We can discuss this while waiting for the poll to be parsed by the heads.
I like them.

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by beetlenaut » December 17th, 2017, 11:43 am

Those are the best suggestions I've seen for that line, but it should be "inferno"--the noun instead of the adjective (like all other unit names).
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Whiskeyjack » December 17th, 2017, 1:51 pm

I think those work well.

For the sake of discussion, I'd like to throw another option into the mix: Some people argued that they like the current unit names and don't think it's too much of a hurdle. I'm not one of those and it took me a whole campaign to get somewhat used to what name represents which unit and I still have no idea what most of them mean (I'd have to look it up every time).
I'd think though, if only one unit line had names like these, the confusion wouldn't occur, because it would be pretty obvious to which line the strange names belonged and sprites are clear indicators of level. And as the Naffat-line is certainly the most fantastical (even if it's a scientific marvel and not a magical) and the least paralleled to armed forces in our-world history, I, therefore, think it would also be an option to leave the names of this line be, while changing the rest!
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by taptap » December 17th, 2017, 6:21 pm

Long story short, the somewhat conservative player base populating this poll can live with Arab inspired nomads, dune-dwellers etc., but absolutely hates the idea of vaguely Arab inspired town-based states. Zombie hordes, dragons, alien invasions, human-alien hybrids... no problem, but don't give us civilised Southrons.

In my opinion, polls should have no place whatsoever in determining the outlook of factions etc. but it should be largely left to the people designing factions and writing campaigns for it. Don't imagine a faction according to your sensitivities, but look what fits such a great campain as Return from the Abyss (completely written under the premise of a centralised state able to send out military expeditions).

I really wish Wesnoth community at large were more courageous and less committed to derivative fantasy.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by BTIsaac » December 17th, 2017, 6:41 pm

taptap wrote:but don't give us civilised Southrons.
'Ho boy. That took longer than I expected but here it comes.

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Whiskeyjack » December 17th, 2017, 6:43 pm

Uhm, no idea what got you so riled up? The two by far most popular options Dunefolk and Southerners are completely free of any implications about the culture, infrastructure and rulign format of the faction!?

Also, to remind you of this gem:
Spoiler:
Even the idea of Nomads (see spoiler above) you criticize, which isn't even far up in the poll, can be taken more creatively than a bland version of "vaguely Arab inspired town-based states". And the actual identity of the faction isn't even up for voting or in an advanced state of discussion.

As the faction is AFAIK unmaintained, I don't know who else should do this but the community!? Your argument about existing campaigns is a fair one (haven't played RftA, is it about Khalifate?), I raised similar concerns in relation to Oath of Allegiance, which is why I argued for options like Dunefolk, which do not obstruct already made world building about ruling structure/culture.
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