[mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

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Re: [mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

Postby revolting_peasant » December 17th, 2017, 2:39 pm

zaimoni: Is that official or just your assumption?

Also - who gets to make the call about changing resistances? Is there an official procedure to have this considered? (Hopefully not a PR on GitHub)
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Re: [mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

Postby Celtic_Minstrel » December 17th, 2017, 3:37 pm

zaimoni wrote:I always considered the tentacle of the deep a shout-out to H.P.Lovecraft. That is, the main body of this tentacle is simply "elsewhere", so arcane vulnerability is easily ret-conned (it's not just the tentacle taking damage, it's the portal to "elsewhere" the tentacle is using to even be there to take damage].

If that were the case, why can't it leave the water?

revolting_peasant wrote:Also - who gets to make the call about changing resistances? Is there an official procedure to have this considered? (Hopefully not a PR on GitHub)


I think convincing zookeeper would be the main thing you need to do to get resistances changed. (If it was a faction unit rather than a monster unit, it would be even harder.)
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Re: [mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

Postby revolting_peasant » December 17th, 2017, 4:14 pm

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:If that were the case, why can't it leave the water?

Because it would have to extend all the way across the land. That's cumbersome. I mean, the portal is far away in the deep waters.

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:I think convincing zookeeper would be the main thing you need to do to get resistances changed. (If it was a faction unit rather than a monster unit, it would be even harder.)

Thanks.
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Re: [mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

Postby Celtic_Minstrel » December 17th, 2017, 4:35 pm

revolting_peasant wrote:
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:If that were the case, why can't it leave the water?

Because it would have to extend all the way across the land. That's cumbersome. I mean, the portal is far away in the deep waters.

I thought he meant the portal was travelling with it. If not, how does damaging the tentacle damage the portal?

(Note that I don't really agree with the idea of a portal though.)
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Re: [mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

Postby revolting_peasant » December 17th, 2017, 4:58 pm

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:I thought he meant the portal was travelling with it. If not, how does damaging the tentacle damage the portal?

Portals don't get dragged along by tentacles :-P

No, the thing is that the tentacle is part of a single arcane/magical entity - you hit any of it, you hit all of it. Or you destablize the magic that keeps the tentacle in this world. Or you reverse the polarity of the neutron flow or something.
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Re: [mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

Postby Xalzar » December 17th, 2017, 8:48 pm

I think "it's portals" is a bad solution, after all it seems they are a bit common to people of Irdya since they do not freak out too much at the sight of them.

About resistances, there are quite a few istances in which unit resistances show that gameplay balance wins over common sense.
I'm no Developer, but I think Tentacles make a sufficiently small contribution to the balance of campaigns that we should not worry too much about changing them.

In specific:
Arcane: the creature below is unknown, but apparently is arcane-sensitive. We need to trust those mages and wizards who died experimenting to find its weakness. Curiosity: Cuttlefish has +20% and Sea and Water Serpents have +0%.
Blade: I think a -10% could be possible. Cuttlefish on the other hand has +20%...
Cold: Water in the depths is very cold, but not freezing. Temperature is constant (except near hydrothermal vents) at a few degrees above zero. I imagine "cold power" is much more colder than that, and quite possibily the tentacle flesh contains abundant water inside other than outside (obviously). Then again, often water attacks are classified as cold, so yeah. Ah, dark magic too I guess. Cold damage is a messy subject. Other similar creatures like the Cuttlefish and the Sea Serpent have 60% though.
Fire: I don't know if a Tentacle should be more flammable than other normal units (standard humans, orcs, etc....): those are surely not fire-proof and have 0% resistance.
Impact: I think is unacceptable, it should be +10%. Other similar creatures like the Cuttlefish and the Sea Serpent have positive resistances, Water Serpent 0%.
Pierce: Perfect.

revolting_peasant wrote:Or you reverse the polarity of the neutron flow or something.

Found the Whovian, nice. :mrgreen:
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Re: [mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

Postby Celtic_Minstrel » December 17th, 2017, 9:47 pm

revolting_peasant wrote:
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:I thought he meant the portal was travelling with it. If not, how does damaging the tentacle damage the portal?

Portals don't get dragged along by tentacles :-P

Well yes, but if the tentacles and the portal are controlled by the same entity, then they could be moved in tandem.

Xalzar wrote:I think "it's portals" is a bad solution, after all it seems they are a bit common to people of Irdya since they do not freak out too much at the sight of them.
I agree, I don't really like the idea of the portal.

Xalzar wrote:About resistances, there are quite a few istances in which unit resistances show that gameplay balance wins over common sense.
I'm no Developer, but I think Tentacles make a sufficiently small contribution to the balance of campaigns that we should not worry too much about changing them.
The concern of gameplay balance primarily applies to multiplayer, so basically only the units that are actually in a faction. Thus it has little bearing on the case of the tentacle. You might want to consider its effect on mainline campaigns that use it, mind you.

Xalzar wrote:Blade: I think a -10% could be possible. Cuttlefish on the other hand has +20%...
I think a vulnerability to blade makes sense, as in principle you could simply severe the tentacle and it would be effectively dead in one blow.

Xalzar wrote:Cold: Water in the depths is very cold, but not freezing. Temperature is constant (except near hydrothermal vents) at a few degrees above zero. I imagine "cold power" is much more colder than that, and quite possibily the tentacle flesh contains abundant water inside other than outside (obviously). Then again, often water attacks are classified as cold, so yeah. Ah, dark magic too I guess. Cold damage is a messy subject. Other similar creatures like the Cuttlefish and the Sea Serpent have 60% though.
Resistance to cold seems like a must for a deep sea creature.

Xalzar wrote:Fire: I don't know if a Tentacle should be more flammable than other normal units (standard humans, orcs, etc....): those are surely not fire-proof and have 0% resistance.
I could actually see an argument for fire resistance; I've heard cephalopods can recover from being stranded and dried. That couldn't support a high resistance though; no more than 10% I'd say.

On the other hand, I can also see an argument for fire vulnerability, based on its cold resistance and the fact that they are somewhat opposites.

Xalzar wrote:Impact: I think is unacceptable, it should be +10%. Other similar creatures like the Cuttlefish and the Sea Serpent have positive resistances, Water Serpent 0%.
Impact resistance makes sense, yeah.

I don't really have an opinion on arcane resistance/vulnerability.
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Re: [mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

Postby Lordlewis » December 17th, 2017, 10:13 pm

This is kind of why I think there should be a poll, where there are multiple choices for each of the resistances such as "bad resistance against arcane" or "good resistance against arcane." This way everyone can their say, and hoping at the time Zookeeper picks up on this.
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Re: [mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

Postby revolting_peasant » December 17th, 2017, 11:15 pm

Lordlewis wrote:This is kind of why I think there should be a pole.

Poll is a great idea! Is there some commonly-used polling facility for these cases or should we just look for a generic web poll generator?

Also, I've heard some convincing arguments here on the thread (not all in the same direction), so my opinion has also been changing. For example - what Celtic_Minstrel just said about fire resistance. So - If Zookeeper agrees let's make a new poll thread, which sums up the various arguments succinctly and link to this one for the discussion. What do you all think?

Xalzar: Was your answer referring to the existing resistances or to my suggestions (e.g. when you say "perfect")?
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Re: [mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

Postby Xalzar » December 17th, 2017, 11:47 pm

revolting_peasant wrote:Xalzar: Was your answer referring to the existing resistances or to my suggestions (e.g. when you say "perfect")?


revolting_peasant wrote:[*]Pierce: 0% <-- should be higher edit: on second thought this is ok[/list]


I mean...aren't they the same? :hmm: 0% I meant. It has no natural armor against pierce but no particular weakness to it either, so that's it: 0% resistance. :eng:

If your question was about all resistances, I was referring to the current ones.
Maybe to clarify I should write my proposed resistances:
Arcane: -30% (not changed)
Blade: -10% (from 0%)
Cold: 60% (from 0%)
Fire: 0% (not changed)
Impact: 10% (from -10%)
Pierce: 0% (not changed)

Arcane should be changed only if it is exstablished that the creature which originates these tentacles is not of magical origin.
Cold can be less, but it needs to have some resistance for consistency.
Fire resistance is uncommon, it exists only in special cases, and no acquatic creature has it as for now.

Now that I've searched the various resistances in Wesnoth units, I've noticed that the Sylph line of the Elvish Shaman gradually increases the Arcane resistance. Without derailing the topic, is there someone who knows why does this happens and can provide me with a short answer? What's the reason in lore? I thought Shamans were following the path of faerie regardless of the branching choice between Shyde and Sylph and so they should be more "magical" and suffer more from arcane attacks... Am I wrong? :doh:
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Re: [mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

Postby Celtic_Minstrel » December 18th, 2017, 1:04 am

revolting_peasant wrote:
Lordlewis wrote:This is kind of why I think there should be a pole.

Poll is a great idea! Is there some commonly-used polling facility for these cases or should we just look for a generic web poll generator?

The forums allow you to add a poll to a thread. If we're doing a poll, I'd suggest using that method.
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Re: [mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

Postby SigurdFireDragon » December 18th, 2017, 4:11 am

Xalzar wrote:...Now that I've searched the various resistances in Wesnoth units, I've noticed that the Sylph line of the Elvish Shaman gradually increases the Arcane resistance. Without derailing the topic, is there someone who knows why does this happens and can provide me with a short answer? What's the reason in lore? I thought Shamans were following the path of faerie regardless of the branching choice between Shyde and Sylph and so they should be more "magical" and suffer more from arcane attacks... Am I wrong? :doh:



I've noticed that as well.
It looks like a motif of living units that make arcane damage their primary attack develop their ability to resist arcane damage. The White mage line does this as well to a stronger degree, and note that the Dark Sorcerer line does not. (it's not their primary attack)
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Re: [mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

Postby zaimoni » December 18th, 2017, 5:02 pm

revolting_peasant wrote:zaimoni: Is that official or just your assumption?
Neither.

The similarities are "obvious" once you've actually read the major short stories (or their abstracts) of H.P.Lovecraft. Even if it's not intentional, there's most likely a common origin.
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Re: [mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

Postby zookeeper » December 18th, 2017, 6:20 pm

I'll write up my thoughts on this in... uh, let's say 24 hours. Poke me if I don't... :whistle:
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Re: [mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

Postby Vyncyn » December 18th, 2017, 6:21 pm

Xalzar wrote:It has no natural armor against pierce but no particular weakness to it either, so that's it: 0% resistance.


Well humans have 0% resistance, but piercing weapons are a lot more effective since they could hurt internal organs.
But I don't think it really matters, as long as we have the "blade is more effective than pierce, is more effective then impact" relation, because the rest could be balanced via hitpoints.
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