[mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

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Re: [mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

Post by Shiki » December 18th, 2017, 6:33 pm

That is probably the case because a tentacle is harder to hit with pierce than with a sword. I know, we talk about resistances, but I see no other way for modelling this.
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Re: [mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

Post by octalot » December 18th, 2017, 9:18 pm

Why would all Tentacles of the Deep belong to the same species? There might be multiple types of creature with tentacles. For some places a portal set up by a mage or lich would make sense; a portal large enough to have tentacles deal with adventurers, but small enough that the entire creature doesn't turn up in the mage's back yard.
SigurdFireDragon wrote:It looks like a motif of living units that make arcane damage their primary attack develop their ability to resist arcane damage. The White mage line does this as well to a stronger degree, and note that the Dark Sorcerer line does not. (it's not their primary attack)
That would make sense, but for the Dark Sorcerer an alternative explanation would be that they may have become similar to a cyborg - not undead, but with parts of them replaced with undead parts.
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Re: [mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » December 19th, 2017, 4:11 am

octalot wrote:
SigurdFireDragon wrote:It looks like a motif of living units that make arcane damage their primary attack develop their ability to resist arcane damage. The White mage line does this as well to a stronger degree, and note that the Dark Sorcerer line does not. (it's not their primary attack)
That would make sense, but for the Dark Sorcerer an alternative explanation would be that they may have become similar to a cyborg - not undead, but with parts of them replaced with undead parts.
My impression was that that sort of thing generally only occurs after they become a lich.
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Re: [mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

Post by zookeeper » December 19th, 2017, 3:52 pm

Yeah, I don't see the current resistances as making much sense. Pretty much all the arguments have already been made, so I won't rehash all of the ones I happen to personally agree/disagree with.

Arcane: current -30% is probably a leftover from the days of holy damage, and the tentacles were thus likely originally intended as parts of some kind of unholy monstrosity. However, they're now a pretty common monster unit and don't usually seem particularly magical; even regeneration comes off as a biological ability. So, 20% resistance seems kind of logical.

Blade: I'd go for vulnerability, because if you think what sort of physical strike would be most effective against a swaying watery tentacle, then it's not going to be smashing it or stabbing it, but slicing it up. Also, the common trope of cutting tentacles with bladed weapons.

Cold and fire: You can make compelling arguments for or against, so I would actually leave those at 0%. But then again, Cuttlefish and Sea Serpents have +60%, so why would there be such a huge difference?

Impact: Trying to smash boneless squishy and flexible tentacles probably isn't going to do much, so resistance seems fitting. Might as well make it as high as the +30% that Cuttlefish and Sea Serpents have.

Pierce: Doesn't seem to be any reason for vulnerability or resistance. A tentacle doesn't have much vital organs so I suppose it could have pie

Code: Select all

arcane 20%
blade -20%
cold   60%
fire   0%
impact 30%
pierce 0%
Of course, Water Serpents should have some kind of resistances/vulnerabilities since they're physically similar to Sea Serpents, and it doesn't make sense that Sea Serpents have 0% arcane resistance if Cuttlefish have +20%. And why are they resistant to blade, anyway?

I don't think any of this has much bearing on mainline campaign balance, but tentacles are a very very common monster unit in UMC, and I don't really know how much problems big resistance changes would have there. Maybe not much considering they're such a weak unit in the first place, but still.

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Re: [mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

Post by revolting_peasant » December 19th, 2017, 6:51 pm

Vyncyn wrote:But I don't think it really matters... because the rest could be balanced via hitpoints.
And do you think the hit-points should change? Because I wasn't thinking of suggesting that (or putting it in a potential poll.)

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Re: [mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

Post by revolting_peasant » December 19th, 2017, 6:54 pm

octalot wrote:Why would all Tentacles of the Deep belong to the same species?
RIght now there is just one kind of tentacle. Differentiating tentacles is a different (and more far-reaching) suggestion which should be brought up separately.

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Re: [mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

Post by Vyncyn » December 19th, 2017, 7:03 pm

revolting_peasant wrote:
Vyncyn wrote:But I don't think it really matters... because the rest could be balanced via hitpoints.
And do you think the hit-points should change? Because I wasn't thinking of suggesting that (or putting it in a potential poll.)
The current hp are ok for a lvl 1 unit, but if you make a poll putting it in wouldn't hurt.

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Re: [mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

Post by revolting_peasant » December 19th, 2017, 7:08 pm

zookeeper wrote:Yeah, I don't see the current resistances as making much sense. Pretty much all the arguments have already been made, so I won't rehash all of the ones I happen to personally agree/disagree with. ... etc. etc. ...
So have you made a decision? Or should we have a poll?

Also - Humans have +20% arcane resistance, but, say, Orcs don't; and Wolves don't. Why would the tentacle have a +20% as opposed to 0%?

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Re: [mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

Post by Xalzar » December 19th, 2017, 7:41 pm

revolting_peasant wrote: Also - Humans have +20% arcane resistance, but, say, Orcs don't; and Wolves don't. Why would the tentacle have a +20% as opposed to 0%?
I've always understood that 20% resistance is the common resistance to arcane of animals and non-magical races (mostly non-magical, since almost every race has individuals capable of using magic to some degree thanks to training - and possibly a bit of natural predisposition).

So the 0% of Orcs has always striked me as a confirmation that their origin is partially magical. :eng:

But maybe it's different: 0% is the "normal" resistance of non-magical people and creatures, and maybe humans etc. and quite a few animals have been developing a resistance to arcane through evolution or some unnatural event). Maybe Orcs and Wolves have not experienced this phenomenon. :hmm:

Or maybe I'm reading too much into this and there are only balance reasons unexplained in lore. :doh:

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Re: [mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

Post by Vyncyn » December 19th, 2017, 9:02 pm

humans have 0% resistance in everything else, so it would make more sense to me that the 20% arcane resistance is something extra, which only humans (and some animals) have developed.
It was easier explained when "arcane" was still "holy". Humans being mostly lawful creatures are resistant against holy attacks, while the chaotic orcs (and magical elves) are not. Now it might be explained via "orcs are noctual creatures and arcane is sometimes used to create light, so orcs are more affected than humans". But I think it's best if we just accept this as something that "just is" and doesn't need a detailed explanation.

Concerning the tentacle I'd go for 0% arcane, as it is somewhat more magical or unnatural than humans

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Re: [mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

Post by Lordlewis » December 19th, 2017, 9:11 pm

I always thought the orcs may have had 0% arcane because they are all chaotic, most (I think) of the human units are lawful or neutral (neutral most likely meaning they have learned magic), but then what about the bandits? Well at some point they could quite possibly be a lawful unit. Non of the mainline orcs have any magic ability other than the shamans from the campaigns.
Edit: also if you read the orc information in the "the Battle for Wesnoth help" one of the first things it says is "their blood is darker and thicker than that of normal humans."
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Re: [mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

Post by octalot » December 19th, 2017, 9:54 pm

Instead of orcs being more vulnerable to arcane attacks, maybe the ones that survive to adulthood are just harder against physical attacks too. 38hp with 0% to everything and 32hp with 20% to everything would be roughly the same.

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Re: [mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

Post by revolting_peasant » December 19th, 2017, 10:44 pm

Vyncyn wrote:Humans have 0% resistance in everything else, so it would make more sense to me that the 20% arcane resistance is something extra, which only humans (and some animals) have developed.
But Orcs have 0% in everything else too...
Vyncyn wrote:It was easier explained when "arcane" was still "holy". Humans being mostly lawful creatures are resistant against holy attacks
Aren't you conflating unlawfulness with unholiness? Or rather - aren't you being kind of anthropocentric here? An Elf could argue that Humans are fickle creatures prone to moral depravity, little better than Orcs. Anyway, I'd also go for 0% - except if ZooKeeper has some rule-of-thumb that he's applying to derive his 20%.

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Re: [mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

Post by Vyncyn » December 20th, 2017, 9:32 am

revolting_peasant wrote:Aren't you conflating unlawfulness with unholiness? Or rather - aren't you being kind of anthropocentric here? An Elf could argue that Humans are fickle creatures prone to moral depravity, little better than Orcs. Anyway, I'd also go for 0% - except if ZooKeeper has some rule-of-thumb that he's applying to derive his 20%.
I just mean humans (exept for outlaws and necromancers) have the "lawful" alignment, elves have "neutral" and orcs "chaotic".
So humans who prefer the light would be more resistant against "holy" attacks associated with light.

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Re: [mainline] Tentacle of the Deep resistances all wrong?

Post by Lordlewis » December 20th, 2017, 9:43 am

Well with the Elves and their arcane weakness, I thought it may of been that they are magical. Let's say that all humanoid unit has 20% arcane resistance, then add or take considering things such as origins (is it magical or is it a beast and such) and alignment. (Formula) magical units -10% arcane and alignment neutral and chaotic -20% arcane, if all humanoid units followed this it would be as it is (other than the mermen). Elves would be -10% arcane, Orcs would be 0%, Mermen would be 10% as well, humans would be 20% as it is, dwarves would be 0%. If no one get's what I mean just pretend you didn't read this.
Edit: now that I think of it, why does the giant rat have arcane resistance? and same for the giant spider.
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