[interface] Quick menu wheel

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Smok
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[interface] Quick menu wheel

Post by Smok »

What realy bothers me is that the key game mechanic, with is recruitment is hidden somewhere on the list, in right-click menu, between many other occasionally used actions, without distinctive icon, and even default shortcut is not simply one key but ctrl+r. May by you are playing this game so long, so you got used to this, but i think it's very nonintuitive, especially for newcommers, and it's not ergonomical - you need to click, find this option, point it with a mouse and click again. So, I was thinking about solution that looks better and feel more comfortable.

My idea involves new type of menu based on choice wheels from dota2/lol. Menu is called by left-clicking on hex and holding mouse button. It appears as wheel of icons of recruitment, recall and scenario specific actions. Action is choosed by moving mouse over it's wheel slice and releasing mouse button. Menu can be closed by releasing mouse button in defined radius from its center (like it works in dota2). It could be desinged that recruitment and recal actions will be always at same positons, so player can make doing this actions a habit done without tought.

References:
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Last edited by Smok on March 26th, 2017, 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
gfgtdf
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Re: [interface] Quick menu wheel

Post by gfgtdf »

I think this would be a nice idea, specially for the mobile port of the game.

One problem that need to be sovled though is that the number of items can be variable, i'm taking in particular about wmls set_menu_item
Scenario with Robots SP scenario (1.11/1.12), allows you to build your units with components, PYR No preperation turn 1.12 mp-mod that allows you to select your units immideately after the game begins.
Smok
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Re: [interface] Quick menu wheel

Post by Smok »

Two layout possibilities comes to mind. Dynamic, with (theoretically) unlimited size, but all actions beside first can change positions in some scenarios. Fixed with limied action capacity, but all actions have invariable positions.
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gfgtdf
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Re: [interface] Quick menu wheel

Post by gfgtdf »

hmm maye we could make a compromise of these two so that for exampel the most used options recruit and recall have fixed posuition that take 1/3 or 1/4 of the spae and the rest is shared dynamically by the other options.
Scenario with Robots SP scenario (1.11/1.12), allows you to build your units with components, PYR No preperation turn 1.12 mp-mod that allows you to select your units immideately after the game begins.
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Celtic_Minstrel
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Re: [interface] Quick menu wheel

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

I don't really see the advantage of this.

The lack of icons and unintuitiveness of the hotkeys do certainly seem like issues, but they can both be solved without any radical changes to the interface. Icons can be added easily, if someone makes them. Hotkeys are trivially changed. The order of menuitems could also be tweaked, ensuring the most commonly used ones are at the top. (Perhaps WML menuitems shouldn't be placed at the top, either – they could be placed after the most common one or two actions.)

Perhaps more importantly, there's theoretically no limit on the number of items in the right-click menu. Individual scenarios, modifications, or eras could add lots of items to the menu, and debug mode also adds a number of items. A wheel interface might be great for up to eight or nine items, but what would you do if there are twenty items to show? I suppose you could add a "More..." option that pages between them, but that seems like a downgrade from the current situation.

Ergonomics might be the sole reason that you state in favour of the wheel that actually makes sense as an argument in favour of the wheel, since (I assume) the wheel interface doesn't actually require you to click on the option you want; you just need to click in the direction of the option you want. (Or hold mouse button to get the wheel, move in desired direction, release mouse button; if you release it while in the centre, it cancels.) Still, I'm not sure that can be said to outweigh the disadvantage outlined in the previous paragraph.



I'm not saying the wheel interface should not be implemented, mind you. Perhaps I could be convinced that it would be worth the trouble. Perhaps there's a way to do it that overcomes the mentioned disadvantage.
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Smok
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Re: [interface] Quick menu wheel

Post by Smok »

Celtic_Minstrel, so what about adding rank= key to [set_menu_item], like it works in campaings, so we can set recruitment and recall to be always on top in the mainline scenarios. Futhermore, lets make that pressing and holding LMB activates first action from right-click menu and RMB activates second (and maybe pressing scroll activates third).
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Vyncyn
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Re: [interface] Quick menu wheel

Post by Vyncyn »

I wouldn't asign mousebuttons to the menu wheel. Mouse is already needed for attacking, selecting and moving units. It should be opend by one key on the keyboard and selecting by left-click, imo.
Smok
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Re: [interface] Quick menu wheel

Post by Smok »

Vyncyn wrote:I wouldn't asign mousebuttons to the menu wheel. Mouse is already needed for attacking, selecting and moving units. It should be opend by one key on the keyboard and selecting by left-click, imo.
Pressing button is. Holding button isn't.
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Samonella
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Re: [interface] Quick menu wheel

Post by Samonella »

Smok wrote:Pressing button is. Holding button isn't.
Actually, you can use hold-and-drag to move or attack units, and I often do. Though I think most people would agree that an easier to use, flashy new gui would be well worth giving that up. Too bad this conversation is happening right before a stable release. :roll:
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Celtic_Minstrel
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Re: [interface] Quick menu wheel

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

Smok wrote:Celtic_Minstrel, so what about adding rank= key to [set_menu_item], like it works in campaings, so we can set recruitment and recall to be always on top in the mainline scenarios.
Actually, the order of menuitems is determined by the ThemeWML (in data/themes), and the default menuitems do not have an associated [set_menu_item]. Even if a rank= key were added to [set_menu_item], it would only be able to rank items within the WML menuitems and thus wouldn't help with putting default items at the top in a menu wheel.
Smok wrote:Futhermore, lets make that pressing and holding LMB activates first action from right-click menu and RMB activates second (and maybe pressing scroll activates third).
Assuming the basic mechanic of the menu wheel is "press right button, move mouse to select desired item, release button", this suggestion would just get in the way. And as Samonella said, pressing and holding LMB already has a function.
Vyncyn wrote:I wouldn't asign mousebuttons to the menu wheel. Mouse is already needed for attacking, selecting and moving units. It should be opend by one key on the keyboard and selecting by left-click, imo.
Well, this is another option, sure; but is there a problem with what I described just above?
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Vyncyn
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Re: [interface] Quick menu wheel

Post by Vyncyn »

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:Well, this is another option, sure; but is there a problem with what I described just above?
Adding hotkeys and icons to the current menu seems good to me. I just meant, if someone reeeeaaallly wants a menu wheel it would be better to open it per keyboard instead of mouseclick/hold.
I also don't see the big difference between mouseclick and hold. Seems to me like you would always open the menu and the menu wheel when you click on the mouse. Dota and Lol also have them on the keyboard.
gfgtdf
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Re: [interface] Quick menu wheel

Post by gfgtdf »

I don't think opening this per keybord would make much sense, why would one want open it by keyboard if one can already directly invoke those actions by keyboard/hotkey?
Scenario with Robots SP scenario (1.11/1.12), allows you to build your units with components, PYR No preperation turn 1.12 mp-mod that allows you to select your units immideately after the game begins.
Tad_Carlucci
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Re: [interface] Quick menu wheel

Post by Tad_Carlucci »

Memory? There are so many hotkeys I tend to only learn them if I use them a LOT.
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Eagle_11
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Re: [interface] Quick menu wheel

Post by Eagle_11 »

Alternative solution: Take menu out of the equation, give hotkey/menu button to open recruit menu directly. The sidebar probably has more than enough space to house an element for it.
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Samonella
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Re: [interface] Quick menu wheel

Post by Samonella »

Tad_Carlucci wrote:Memory? There are so many hotkeys I tend to only learn them if I use them a LOT.
Aren't recruiting/recalling both things that you do a lot? I think the default hotkeys, alt+r and ctrl+r, are great, that's what I always use.
Eagle_11 wrote:Alternative solution: Take menu out of the equation, give hotkey/menu button to open recruit menu directly. The sidebar probably has more than enough space to house an element for it.
You mean options next to "end turn" or something? How would you decide which tile to recruit in? You can already use keyboard shortcuts (like I said above) to open the menus directly, and all you have to do is point at the desired tile. Since you can even customize your hotkeys, I don't see how we could come up with anything more ergonomic than that.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:Perhaps more importantly, there's theoretically no limit on the number of items in the right-click menu. Individual scenarios, modifications, or eras could add lots of items to the menu, and debug mode also adds a number of items. A wheel interface might be great for up to eight or nine items, but what would you do if there are twenty items to show? I suppose you could add a "More..." option that pages between them, but that seems like a downgrade from the current situation.
This is the problem we've been ignoring when it comes to the circle menu. When you have a circle is divided up very finely, how do you display the text?

My idea would be to keep using the current right-click menu, but add functionality so that if you right-click-hold, you can use the scroll-wheel to select options, then release RMB when you've selected the one you want. Combine this with always putting recruit/recall on the top, and I think it would be a good alternative to the current point-click. I also imagine that it wouldn't be hard to implement.
The last few months have been nothing but one big, painful reminder that TIMTLTW.

Creator of Armory Mod, The Rising Underworld, and Voyage of a Drake: an RPG
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