[Mainline] Deep Dwarfs

[skeptical_troll]

I find your idea very interesting and creative, but I have two problems with it:
1) The communicating vessels principle: i.e. if there are tunnels connecting the deep sea and the underground world, the latter would be filled up to the sea level, unless it has crazy air pressure due to lava heat or whatever.

2) If deep dwarves originate from the depth, as I imagine, it's likely that they locate their 'creator/inventor' at the center of the earth, rather then above them.

However the idea of underground rivers that bring incautious dwarves down to the creator could still work as part of the mythology

[Vyncyn]

1) The communicating vessels principle: i.e. if there are tunnels connecting the deep sea and the underground world, the latter would be filled up to the sea level, unless it has crazy air pressure due to lava heat or whatever.

The tunnels wouldn't fill with water when there is air trapped in them, though this would mean they aren't connected to the surface. Another idea might work: water tunnels and ocean are (nearly) on the same level. The tunnels woud still be "deep" relatively to the mountains. Or maybe the water level was once lower due to an ice age and then the connection to the ocean was shut so the water in the tunnels didn't rise anymore.

[Whiskeyjack]

2) If deep dwarves originate from the depth, as I imagine, it's likely that they locate their 'creator/inventor' at the center of the earth, rather then above them.

Not at all, locating their deity at the source of what keeps them alive is a good option (and the Destroyer on the end where all life is lost). They could have a legend of origin that tells of an escape from lifeless existance in the deep realms of the Destroyer, rather than a "birthing" (I find this much more intriguing and less generic).

The problem I have though, is with the name "Inventor". It´s incredibly bad for the whole setting discussed up to now of dwarves more tuned to nature and magic and less to technology and craftsmanship. I think "Origin" or "Giver" (perhaps "Life Giver" or "Giver of Life" as a title would work fine as well) and "Devourer" would be more fitting names (though "Destroyer" is relatively fine as is).

The tunnels wouldn't fill with water when there is air trapped in them, though this would mean they aren't connected to the surface. Another idea might work: water tunnels and ocean are (nearly) on the same level. The tunnels woud still be "deep" relatively to the mountains. Or maybe the water level was once lower due to an ice age and then the connection to the ocean was shut so the water in the tunnels didn't rise anymore.

Last one doesn´t work though, as the whole setting depends on there still being a connection and the second doesn´t really sound good. The first one does, but it would need the dwarves to find a way up without connecting their caves to the overworld, which seems rather impossible (underwater dwarves just doesn´t fit the bill here).

[skeptical_troll]

The tunnels wouldn't fill with water when there is air trapped in them

true, but the air pressure in these air sacs would be very high (~100 atm every km below the see level, I imagine this could be problematic in many ways), and I don't see how to overcome the problem with the lack of connection to the surface.

Not at all, locating their deity at the source of what keeps them alive is a good option (and the Destroyer on the end where all life is lost). They could have a legend of origin that tells of an escape from lifeless existance in the deep realms of the Destroyer, rather than a "birthing" (I find this much more intriguing and less generic).

I guess all options are open. I personally prefer the view where the underground is an almost-close and independent ecosystem, where the first source of energy, instead of the sun, is the heat of the deep earth. In this case the dwarves would not rely on what is brought down from the surface. I think both the creator and the destroyer should be located at the center of the earth (lava, the main carrier of energy in this view, stems from below), but it could be that they coincide or that in their mythology there is an ambiguous relationship with the creator, like a nasty god who created them as slaves, but they were then liberated by a prophet or some other deity.

[Samonella]

About the cave filling up: All there needs to be is a choke point controlling how much water can be entering the cave at once, since there is also a drain. By this model (water flowing out just as fast as in) it would be possible to have relatively low air pressure, as well as other connections to the surface. Also, if the choke point was at the very top where the tunnel connects to the ocean, then most of the tunnel could still have a layer of air. Details in the dwarves' journey up are much less important, but I was imagining that they'd meet various creatures from other caves that connect (mostly hostile) while fighting their way up river, and then there would be a climactic scenario where one of the magicians/runemasters gives them all an air bubble around their head or something and you have a strickly timed scenario where you fight/race your way to the ocean surface.

Of course, the choke point would constantly be eroding bigger, which means the river would increase size over time. I guess it was really small long ago?

The problem I have though, is with the name "Inventor". It´s incredibly bad for the whole setting discussed up to now of dwarves more tuned to nature and magic and less to technology and craftsmanship. I think "Origin" or "Giver" (perhaps "Life Giver" or "Giver of Life" as a title would work fine as well) and "Devourer" would be more fitting names (though "Destroyer" is relatively fine as is).

Yeah, definitely true. Consider this though: just because the dwarves don't invent things themselves doesn't mean they can't admire inventions. Also, gifts from their God who Invented all of nature are still natural things, so relying on his inventions is still relying on nature. This doesn't mean that the name "Inventor" is much good. I don't rely like "Life Giver," though. I'd say to avoid anything reminiscent of real-life monotheism, since the whole set up is already an awful lot like heaven and hell. I do like the "Devourer" a bit better.

it could be that they coincide or that in their mythology there is an ambiguous relationship with the creator, like a nasty god who created them as slaves, but they were then liberated by a prophet or some other deity.

I like this idea a lot. It would allow the dwarves' origins to be from below while their life still comes from the river above. Of course, what I just said stomped over your opinion that the main energy source should be geo-thermal heat. That's certainly a more scientifically probably way for things to happen, and is more true to typical mythology of dwarves being tied to the depths of the Earth. A possible compromise would be that most fungi (not fungi, but whatever this new kingdom is) rely on minerals and heat more than anything else, but still rely heavily on the river for fertilization. Basically like the Nile in Egypt.

[Vyncyn]

About the cave filling up: All there needs to be is a choke point controlling how much water can be entering the cave at once, since there is also a drain

But where would the water flow to? It has got to hit the deepest cave sometime and then it would just just flood all the tunnels until it's on ocean level again, unless it comes out of the mountains again at a sub sea level where it could evaporate, given that it can evaporate faster than it comes, but this might be a bit of a stretch. Though maybe I should question a world with dwarves and magic.

[skeptical_troll]

About the cave filling up: All there needs to be is a choke point controlling how much water can be entering the cave at once, since there is also a drain. By this model (water flowing out just as fast as in) it would be possible to have relatively low air pressure

Sorry to be pedantic, but even if you have a choke point the water would flow with a crazy energy (velocity) inside the low-pressure chambers, likely with very destructive effects. The idea of a connection close to the ocean's surface, instead, works well, and it is quite clear that the water of underground rivers comes from above, so it could be also salty water from the sea, and that one of these rivers is particularly big and of key importance for one of this dwarvish civilizations. There isn't necessarily contradiction with the geothermic-energy idea (unless they discovered hydroelectric dams), all life forms need both water and energy.

Back to mythology: they may have multiple gods, located in different part of the world. Since at the beginning of their time they did not know about the surface, for them stone is what the whole universe is made of, and there is a special point which is the hot center (a good question is whether they think in a spherical symmetry or just in terms of up/down, I like more the first). So it makes sense that many important deities are located there, as well as the origin of many things including themselves. Water, instead, is flowing from the cold external areas.

[Samonella]

Where does the water go from the drain? The destroyer drinks all of it. Otherwise he gets a bad cough, loses his temper and tries to kill everyone.

For a real answer, i was thinking this wasn't important in a world were trees can walk around. Now that you bring it up though, we could say it travels far from the dwarves' cavern, hits the mantle, evaporates, builds up enough pressure to force its way clear to the surface and shoots up in a hot spring.

And about skeptical_troll's last post: your physics solutions and mythology ideas all sound good enough for me. I'll just say that though the river would move terrifyingly fast in my first model, but it could still slow down by spreading out, or there could be an aquifer near the ocean to buffer it and absorb some kinetic energy.

EDIT: By "spread out," i mean increase in volume, which is the same as the aquifer thing but on a smaller scale. So lots of water moving slowly moves the same amount as a little water moving very quickly. Therefore, the speed and pressure right at the choke-point would be tremendous, but farther along it could easily calm down.

[tr0ll]

Let's not forget that dwarves are rather good underground builders, crafters and engineers. They would have solved the water filling and air breathing problems, making use of resources at hand such as geothermal energy, gravity, pressure, and even rune magic. So caves below sea level are plausible.
The question is, why are they so far down?

[Transfermium]

Let's not forget that dwarves are rather good underground builders, crafters and engineers. They would have solved the water filling and air breathing problems, making use of resources at hand such as geothermal energy, gravity, pressure, and even rune magic. So caves below sea level are plausible.
The question is, why are they so far down?

I feel like they refused to go to the surface because of superstition, or they got trapped underground by a cave-in or something.

[Tad_Carlucci]

I feel like they refused to go to the surface because of superstition, or they got trapped underground by a cave-in or something.

It might be more dramatic to make some vague reference to some event, long past, which caused them to withdraw deeper underground than 'normal' Dwarves. That would open the possibility of campaigns concerning that time in their history.

[skeptical_troll]

All we know from the wiki about dwarves' origins is that 'Legends tell of a time long forgotten when their people began emerging from their underground world through caves'. So I'd like to think of this deep dwarfs as their ancestor, who never 'withdraw' from the surface (too much a human-like way of thinking) but rather originated deep in the ground and just stayed there for a long time because that was their habitat. It could actually be that they were scared of going up, as temperature decreases further from the center and everything becomes 'cold and dead'.

It would be nice to imagine the feelings of the first dwarf who saw the surface and the sky, as they never even conceived that such a thing existed.

[Eagle_11]

They would perceive the sky as an strange blue abyss you can possibly fall into, if not set your foot hard on the ground. ([acronym=Dragon Age:Origins]DA:O[/acronym] had some possible dialogue with an dwarf along the lines of that)

They maybe shun the company of their 'sky-touched' brethren dwelling at above levels because think they become weird after getting to the surface, and adapting to the life there.

[Can-ned_Food]

It would also make sense for them to tame underground beasts like giant spiders, worms, centipedes, olms etc.

Deep Dwarven Spider Riders sound good as a scout.

“Spider Riders, muster!” I'd be a Spider Rider. “What all do you do?” they'd ask me. “Well, I'm a Deep Dwarven Spider Rider, for one.” I'd reply.

Taming beasts: there is really no limit to fantasy here. If spiders don't look intelligent enough for taming, it could be big moles, or salamanders or a totally fictional creature (not necessarily for mounting, they could be in other form of symbiosis). Who know what grows in the underground, separated from the rest of the world. If these guys are small as I was suggesting, some of them could be small enough to mount on big bats, as dwarves do with gryphons.

Are the Deep Dwarves squeamish at all? I had an idea that perhaps they insert surgically prepared young dwarves inside blind, gelatinous, troglodytic amphibians, whereupon the two merge on the tissue–level to form a symbiotic hybrid. Like Goa'uld or Trill.

2) If deep dwarves originate from the depth, as I imagine, it's likely that they locate their 'creator/inventor' at the center of the earth, rather then above them.

Not at all, locating their deity at the source of what keeps them alive is a good option (and the Destroyer on the end where all life is lost). They could have a legend of origin that tells of an escape from lifeless existance in the deep realms of the Destroyer, rather than a "birthing" (I find this much more intriguing and less generic).

Or, if it is Abbo-Sathla down there, then the two are one and the same.

They would perceive the sky as an strange blue abyss you can possibly fall into, if not set your foot hard on the ground. ([acronym=Dragon Age:Origins]DA:O[/acronym] had some possible dialogue with an dwarf along the lines of that)

When I was younger, I would hang upside down and consider this same thing. It horrified me.