Putting campaign units into mainline?

[Gyra_Solune]

So, I highly advocate for as many campaign units to be no longer campaign-exclusive and to perhaps be supported as actual in-game units! Here are my thoughts on each.

Merman King: Decent enough, fills a niche role as an aquatic leadership unit - best candidate for a hero-exclusive unit to be made into a full unit, much like the Orcish Leader.

Merman Citizen/Brawler: Versatile 'peasant' units are typically nice! And the Brawler has an interesting concept, the only shame is its lack of promotions. I think at the very least the Brawler should have a level 2 and then we have something, though the Brawler should be taken down from 19 gold to maybe 15 or 16.

Kraken: The only weakness of this unit is that while it looks cool, it's slightly too disparate in appearance from the Cuttle Fish, but otherwise the Cuttle Fish is a cool unit and a level 3 of it is neat.

Journeyman Mage (basically the Delfador unit): This is where I get unsure! He is, after all, a bog-standard mage with healing and leadership and speed with just slight disparities in his melee attack and HP. Basically I think things would have to be better defined - I'm thinking change him up to be more of a 'Gray Mage' at level 2, as the bureaucrats and military leaders of the mage orders, who know skills from both orders of magi but master neither.

Wose Shaman: All for it! Should units have less than 4 MP though? I know the basic Mudcrawler has 3 but hm. Also perhaps it should have a faintly stronger melee attack than the regular Wose but not to the degree of the Elder one. Like, 13-2 or so. Also skipping ahead a bit, the Wose Sapling from TRoW should get in too, it looks okay, if perhaps slightly bushier than a sapling ought to be.

Apprentice Mage (the Malin Keshar unit): Even more unsure about this one than Delfador. He has a clear and distinct role from the red mages he's based on - Malin's an out and out dark mage with all that entails, just with a sword instead of a staff. He's also kind of just a mage/sorcerer with Konrad's head. If it's intended to stay as-is then I'd say it's not a strong enough case to make it a real unit, but slightly drastic changes are needed for me to say it should be a mainline unit.

basically all the HttT units: Not quite sure. I like the Princess's ability of a First Strike aura, that's really interesting. Konrad's functionally identical to Haldric but then there's already a human leadership unit, then there's two units that are situational sprites of incapacitated units, and then Asheviere is...actually extremely weak for a level 3 unit, with her only notable trait being a lawful unit with Cold attacks.

Great Ogre should be done in though it needs higher HP, in the high 80s to low 90s. The Elvish Horse Archer is less certain, I get the idea but it's kind of just a better version of the Rider but with slightly less melee (and who uses the rider as a melee unit)

The Rogue Mage is neat as a sort of less extreme but less powerful Adept. I like it as a sort of outlaw mage (though I must say there is one particular outlaw mage in several UMC that really impresses me, it even has portraits and everything) that follows the general outlaw format of being middling but versatile.

The Death Squire is good, I'd argue for it actually as a leader for the Undead faction as kind of an analogue to the Loyalists having their Lieutenant. And I actually think the Skeleton Rider would be a good addition to the initial lineup, though I think it should have the impact attack from the onset instead of the blade, so it's kind of a budget Horseman that's not that good at the super damaging part, but has more value in just being a sort of fast standby.

Orcish Shamans are odd! They're presented like three variants of a unit when they look like promotions of each other. Dunno what the intent is with them.

The Owaec units, that heavy cavalry from Eastern Invasion! Give it shock on its Level 1, reduce its price to like 18 gold, rename the first two units to Heavy Cavalry and Cataphract, and it's good!

Dwarvish Witness: Interesting support dwarf! I'd say go for it!

I kind of have an interesting proposal for the Wesfolk Outcast unit and that's perhaps to make it a touch more Incan-inspired: I imagine the Wesfolk as having sort of Mesoamerican flavors considering geography and the vaguely Mayan look to the Drakes' villages, considering they come from the same place I thin. Jessene's primarily a slinger for which the Incans were renowned - also fits with her stats as they were lighter armored and focused on agility. I envision the Familiar as being the scout unit of that 'faction' too. Vampire is fine too I guess, it's kind of a weird unit.

The two civilian units from Sceptre of Fire are interesting. The Miner has a potentially interesting prospect in that it could be a melee pierce guy who maybe also gets some fire or something as a secondary weapon, something the dwarves and indeed the Knalgan Alliance overall has neither of. The Caravan...not so much. Very clearly a gimmick unit, wondering what all could be done with it.

The South Guard! I like both of them, the infantry guy as a sort of field commander compared to the usual human leadership line which is more the type to hang back, and the cavalry commander as the liason in a way between the formal Wesnoth military and the less organized and affiliated horsemen - he's probably the kind of unit that was born and raised in those clans but is much more loyal to the monarchy so he's who is sent out to organize the clans. And the Eyestalk...hm. Slightly odd unit. Immobile is...uncertain. maybe it could use some movement?

And UtBS is being dealt with. Many words I have spoken: thoughts on if you agree with this sentiment, or any particular changes you have, or if you think units remaining campaign-exclusive is for the better?

[zookeeper]

or if you think units remaining campaign-exclusive is for the better?

Well... I do, in most cases. As soon as campaign-exclusive units go to core, making changes to them immediately warrants increased consideration, because any amount of content might depend on them. Also, the descriptions and/or other flavourful details or even sprites of hero units are likely to get diluted over time to make the unit type more fit for generic use. Single special units (Wose Shaman, Dwarvish Miner, Dark Queen, etc) generally can't be joined to existing unit lines and would remain as isolated oddball units not clearly belonging anywhere. As a campaign maintainer, it's annoying if you want to make a change to what is ostensibly that campaign's unit, except that technically it's not. Even if one might think that moving a unit to core would take the burden off a campaign maintainer, it might end up becoming one instead.

The only major benefit for moving campaign units to core is to make them available for MP add-ons which don't require installation, and I don't think that's a good enough reason in most cases. For certain monster units or complete unit lines it makes sense, if they're reasonably unique and not just a slight variation of existing units. For example, if the Dwarvish Witness line had more passable sprites and the inspire ability wasn't just an uninspired leadership+1, then it might be a good candidate.

[Eagle_11]

IMHO Knalgan side should have Scouts in addition to all what they have currently, cause its an tactical option like any other, it would fit into their unit portfolio.

[Gyra_Solune]

IMHO Knalgan side should have Scouts in addition to all what they have currently, cause its an tactical option like any other, it would fit into their unit portfolio.

Well that's an entirely different matter, the Scouts are already in the base game, just not in a faction (and they already have footpads to do roughly the same thing anyway).

Well... I do, in most cases. As soon as campaign-exclusive units go to core, making changes to them immediately warrants increased consideration, because any amount of content might depend on them. Also, the descriptions and/or other flavourful details or even sprites of hero units are likely to get diluted over time to make the unit type more fit for generic use. Single special units (Wose Shaman, Dwarvish Miner, Dark Queen, etc) generally can't be joined to existing unit lines and would remain as isolated oddball units not clearly belonging anywhere. As a campaign maintainer, it's annoying if you want to make a change to what is ostensibly that campaign's unit, except that technically it's not. Even if one might think that moving a unit to core would take the burden off a campaign maintainer, it might end up becoming one instead.

The only major benefit for moving campaign units to core is to make them available for MP add-ons which don't require installation, and I don't think that's a good enough reason in most cases. For certain monster units or complete unit lines it makes sense, if they're reasonably unique and not just a slight variation of existing units. For example, if the Dwarvish Witness line had more passable sprites and the inspire ability wasn't just an uninspired leadership+1, then it might be a good candidate.

Ahhh, okay, I think I get what you're going for. So I guess dedicated campaign main character units should refrain from being elsewhere. I guess that makes sense, I suppose the Orcish Leader is sort of an exception since you can't see its face so it could be anyone, or so.

I think the Wose Shaman is a seemingly reasonable enough alternate promotion for the Wose? And to be honest there's a fairly large amount of weird isolated single units - the Royal Warrior, Chocobone, Death Knight, Elvish Lady, Troll Shaman, Elder Mage, all the boats, the various wolves that seem like they should promote to each other, and pretty much every monster if you're counting those, so I didn't really think adding a handful more would be all that much of a problem.

[zookeeper]

Ahhh, okay, I think I get what you're going for. So I guess dedicated campaign main character units should refrain from being elsewhere. I guess that makes sense, I suppose the Orcish Leader is sort of an exception since you can't see its face so it could be anyone, or so.

Yeah, Orcish Leader fits in core pretty well because it's a complete unit line, it gives orcs a potential "great leader" leadership unit, and the individual under the helmet could be anyone.

I think the Wose Shaman is a seemingly reasonable enough alternate promotion for the Wose?

Maybe. Could use some further tweaking perhaps, such as making it lvl3 (or adding a lvl3 advancement for it) and making its specialty be something other than just slowing.

And to be honest there's a fairly large amount of weird isolated single units - the Royal Warrior, Chocobone, Death Knight, Elvish Lady, Troll Shaman, Elder Mage, all the boats, the various wolves that seem like they should promote to each other, and pretty much every monster if you're counting those, so I didn't really think adding a handful more would be all that much of a problem.

Many of those are indeed examples of units moved from campaigns to core. Royal Warrior, Elder Mage, Elvish Lady and Troll Shaman were all campaign units originally, and while I think Royal Warrior and Elvish Lady are harmless and Troll Shaman has been well-integrated into the troll line, I do think that Elder Mage for all intents and purposes is Delfador and should have remained in HttT. I don't recall why Death Knight's advancement from Revenant is still kept behind the ENABLE_DEATH_KNIGHT include (if said reasons no longer apply, then perhaps it needs to be reconsidered), and Chocobone... well, that one really is a genuine oddball unit.

Anyway, if I had to make a list of campaign units which I think have the most potential for core inclusion, then it'd probably be this (in no particular order):

Skeleton Rider line (with improved sprites, a lvl3, and a portrait)
Mounted Warrior line (with improved sprites, and portraits)
Rogue Mage line (with portraits)
Wose Sapling
Wose Shaman
Naga Guardian line (with portraits)

But I think almost all of those would require a non-trivial amount of work and/or thought, especially the first three. So, there's certainly lots of possibilities, but very few of them are as simple as just moving the files around. Making big changes to existing core units is an iffy affair, so when new core units get added, they should be well thought-out from the get-go to fulfill some kind of clear role and do it as well as they can. For example, as much as I sort of like the idea of a Wose Shaman, I think the current version of it in DM is pretty far from the best it could be as a generic core unit and alternative advancement in the Wose line, and thus I wouldn't want it in core as-is.

[Eagle_11]

I have tried giving Wose Shaman 'boosts regeneration of woses adjacent' as an ability, as far i remember functioned well for it.

There was an mounted unit-line for bandits at some point (?) maybe that can make an return.

[Gyra_Solune]

Some kind of healing ability would be interesting for the Shaman, but I'm not too sure about how you'd go about boosting it for other woses - regenerates is already amounting to an internal cures and heals+8. Actually, maybe the Shaman could have like, Illuminates or something? And perhaps cures itself not for woses but for other units - something like 'it grows medicinal herbs' or so.

So the concise stat changes I'd suggest for the ordinary campaign units to be more default-appropriate:

Merman Brawler: 15-16 gold cost, maybe slightly lower HP around 34, and definitely a level 2
Rogue Mage: Maybe removal of leadership on its higher levels, unsure what that's even doing there to be honest
Mounted Fighter: Super reduced gold cost around 17-18, shock on the level 1 maybe, doing...something about that blade attack to not make the unit just 'a Cavalryman but better'
Dwarvish Witness: maybe change Inspire to be a simple flat +25% bonus to all, or give the heal/cure to the level 1 and remove Inspire altogether
Skeleton Rider: Its look is nice but its attack is uncertain, maybe make the trample charge on the level 1 and set that to the primary, with the axe as a weaker sidearm.
Wose Shaman: 10-2 melee, maybe Illuminates or maybe Magical on its ranged attack

And yeah almost all of them need some art changeups. The Witness is okayish excepting its level 3, the Rider is good but its level 2 not so much, I do like the Shaman but it could use touchups, and I remain liking the previous version's Rogue Mage over the sort of weird-looking current ones even if they have that kind of neat effect on their sword.

[DeCoolest_Cat]

Regarding the skeleton rider: that sounds a lot like the grand knight. With it's level 2, that would work, but if it evolves into the chocobone... that would be weird. Losing the secondary non-charge attack could only be a disadvantage.

With the mounted fighter: it is very similar to the cavalryman. Maybe, it could become only available as a leader, like the lieutenant. That is what it could mostly be like, a mounted lieutenant, without the ranged. Its level 1 could be recruited in AoH maybe.

[Gyra_Solune]

Regarding the skeleton rider: that sounds a lot like the grand knight. With it's level 2, that would work, but if it evolves into the chocobone... that would be weird. Losing the secondary non-charge attack could only be a disadvantage.

With the mounted fighter: it is very similar to the cavalryman. Maybe, it could become only available as a leader, like the lieutenant. That is what it could mostly be like, a mounted lieutenant, without the ranged. Its level 1 could be recruited in AoH maybe.

It's okay if the skeleton rider is slightly like the Grand Knight...because in the campaign they appear in, Liberty, they're actually part of an interesting gimmick where your opponent's units are the human Loyalists by day but are revealed to be Undead by night - so Spearmen turn into Skeletons, Bowmen turn into Skeleton Archers, and their Horsemen turn into the Skeleton Rider. I think it would not go directly to the Chocobone but instead that being an alternate prestige class - the Rider would of course turn into similar sort of sluggish (though faster than most other Undead units) mixed cavalry, but the Chocobone would be a viable alternative for its much higher speed and mobility in exchange for losing a more standard attack and being a bit riskier - a comparison not unlike the regular Horseman where it either goes into the slower but more versatile Knight or the fast and risky Lancer.

Ideally though the mounted fighter isn't similar to the cavalryman. The idea is that the Loyalist cavalry is a 'light' cavalry where their primary use is scouting ahead and reinforcing. The Horseman is a cavalry designed specifically for charging and concentrating massive damage into a singular location. So the Mounted Fighter should be distinct from both as they're clearly designed as a heavy cavalry - they should be a lot tougher but slower, not too unlike a mounted Heavy Infantry. The Shock ability (by the by that special is that when used offensively, it reduces the enemy's retaliation by 1 strike, unless it only has 1 strike to give) should be a major part in defining it - it won't be AS resilient as the Heavy Infantry defensively, but in return it's a little tougher on the offense.

Oh, and there are rules for heroes and their MP - they are supposed to be land units with between 4 and 6 MP total (if they have 4, they will be given the Quick trait so they should always be 5 or 6 MP). Only exceptions are the Dwarvish Berserker for obvious reasons, and the Khalifate's Qatif-al-Nar and Faris for reasons unknown to me (i am still looking for an answer on that!) given they both fit the criteria. Otherwise that is what defines a leader - a faction will have all units that fit those criteria, no more and no less, with the sole exception of the Loyalists having the option for the Lieutenant (and even then I sort of think the Sergeant as a recruitable wouldn't be too terrible? but the Loyalists are a huge faction without it so), while not having the Ogre that they can recruit in Age of Heroes (which is understandable since it'd be sort of weird for an ogre to be leading a formal military).

[DeCoolest_Cat]

The mounted fighter could have 6mp. You said:

they should be a lot tougher but slower

This would fulfill the needs for being a leader. But even if they are added, do the loyalists need another horseman line? 2 seems like enough, and the loyalists are already a large faction.

[Gyra_Solune]

Nah, Loyalists are fine as they are. These units in particular are in-story an arm of the eastern clansmen that give rise to the horsemen, so they're already kind of represented, and they'd be weirdly cavalry-heavy if they had three horse riders all of a melee bent at once (Khalifate kinda gets away with their two because one is very clearly a Turkic style heavy cataphract lancer while the other is very much evocative of Mongol nomadic horse archers, and they both have differing alignments as well). Perhaps though they could be used by some other faction in the future, though I've no clue what.

[Aldarisvet]

Skeleton Rider line (with improved sprites, a lvl3, and a portrait)
Mounted Warrior line (with improved sprites, and portraits)
Rogue Mage line (with portraits)
Wose Sapling
Wose Shaman
Naga Guardian line (with portraits)

From my point of view Undead Barrow Riders from Carved in Stone look much better than current Skeleton Riders from Liverty/UtBS
http://units.wesnoth.org/1.12/Carved_in ... tml#Undead

Well, they have draining ability here and look more like a liches but why not.
Also I cannot understand what type of horses ride current Skeleton Riders. Alife horse doubtly would bare a skeleton rider. And zombie horse doubtly would have high speed.

[Gyra_Solune]

Skeleton Rider line (with improved sprites, a lvl3, and a portrait)
Mounted Warrior line (with improved sprites, and portraits)
Rogue Mage line (with portraits)
Wose Sapling
Wose Shaman
Naga Guardian line (with portraits)

From my point of view Undead Barrow Riders from Carved in Stone look much better than current Skeleton Riders from Liverty/UtBS
http://units.wesnoth.org/1.12/Carved_in ... tml#Undead

Well, they have draining ability here and look more like a liches but why not.
Also I cannot understand what type of horses ride current Skeleton Riders. Alife horse doubtly would bare a skeleton rider. And zombie horse doubtly would have high speed.

Ooh ooh, I really like those two horses, those look really good. Actually a lot of sprites here look good. Especially the giant troll and the Protector.

I think the Skeleton rider is on top of a zombie horse. That's why it doesn't have the 8 movement of most mounted units, it just has an okay 7. Though weirdly the mounted Walking Corpse only has 5. Hmmmm.

...maybe it ought to be a skeleton horse then!

[GoatGoat]

Sorry for the necrobump, but I'd like to add that I really like Dead Water's custom units. The sprites for them look great, and I really liked the Merman King line. Only odd thing would be the King's aging being related to level. It makes sense for the campaign, but not much for other scenarios or multiplayer.

It'd also be nice to see a Death Squire or two from Liberty in other UMC.

[Celtic_Minstrel]

I generally think that it's a good idea to import campaign units into mainline, but hero units probably shouldn't be imported. This covers the merman king line, the journeyman and apprentice mages, Konrad and Li'sar, the two special commander units in TSG, the dwarvish witness (if I understand correctly this unit is indeed just a single hero in the campaign. The dwarvish miner is pretty gimmicky if I understand correctly, so putting that in mainline would be kinda weird.

That does leave the merman citizen and brawler (though it really needs at least a L2 if not a L3 first), the kraken, the wose shaman, the skeleton rider, the death squire (which seems like something that should promote to death knight, not sure if it already does), the great ogre, and possibly the rogue mage line. The orcish shamans as well, if they can be recast as a unit line rather than three unique units. (Not sure if allowing promotions would harm the storyline of SotBE.) Maybe a few others from campaigns I'm far less familiar with, like EI or TRoW or UtBS.

Perhaps the best one would be skeleton rider / bone knight as that's already used in two separate campaigns. (And UtBS also has an undead horseman.)