[in general]Should Backstab be tweaked ?

[Eagle_11]

Backstab is an powerful ability in it's current form as it can effectively double or triple an unit's damage output if all attacks made by the unit would land(and the target had the vulnerabilities fitting to backstabbers dmg type) or if multiple backstab capable units were present and swarming the target. This can be an game ender at most times if have happent to your leader piece.

I suggest the increased damage to be applied on the first strike that lands during the attack, and then remaining strikes that land will use the attack's regular dmg.
The simple logic here being that if target gets backstabbed but remains alive then he will become aware of attacker in behind and re-adjust himself or do something to not let it happen again.

[tekelili]

Come on! Backstab is far from be as overpowered as other specials as Charge, Magical or Frenzy. Backstab requires usage of a secondary unit to get damge doubled and also crap your natural army line formation. It can be denied by ZOC (or continuos line vs skirmishers). If we also considere that only mainline units with backstab (Thief and Shadow lines) are far from be overpowered, what reason could there be to change it?

[Eagle_11]

Charge

usually dies in the next turn if not rightout.

Magical

mainly exists to make up for the fact that the units that have this on their ranged attacks are rather crappy without it.

Frenzy

it has an similar drawback like charge to its use, and as its an wild roll, it can be either total failure or success depending on your luck(unless zerks an DA).

If we also considere that only mainline units with backstab (Thief and Shadow lines) are far from be overpowered, what reason could there be to change it?

because gets problematic in UMC, and im not sure if can be tweaked the way i have suggested, basically is overpowering when slapped on anything that isnt built around utilizing it (anything other than those 2 mainline units).
feel like it should be an bonus, not the main purpose of their attack.

[tekelili]

If we also considere that only mainline units with backstab (Thief and Shadow lines) are far from be overpowered, what reason could there be to change it?

because gets problematic in UMC, and im not sure if can be tweaked the way i have suggested, basically is overpowering when slapped on anything that isnt built around utilizing it (anything other than those 2 mainline units).
feel like it should be an bonus, not the main purpose of their attack.

Well, then we are talking about UMC authors that don´t waste time in code a lesser version of bakstab or they added it as gainable bonus without taking care of balance issues when stacked on some units or some other special bonus. If Backstab works perfectly balanced in mainline, it means such special should exist for that enverioment despite other enverioments need other specials.

[Dixie]

If we also considere that only mainline units with backstab (Thief and Shadow lines) are far from be overpowered, what reason could there be to change it?

because gets problematic in UMC, and im not sure if can be tweaked the way i have suggested, basically is overpowering when slapped on anything that isnt built around utilizing it (anything other than those 2 mainline units).
feel like it should be an bonus, not the main purpose of their attack.

Indeed, if it is your main point, it is not a very strong one. This is the problem of UMC developpers, not of the mainline game. Should we nerf mainline stuff everytime a UMC abuses them? The problem is not the mainline thing, it's the UMC.

Also, there are two scenarios where you will likely fall prey to backstab imho:
1) You were not careful enough and got caught out of formation by the enemy.
2) Your opponent actually outplayed you by careful unit placement and tactics, put one of his unit out of formation, somewhere it will get punished pretty bad, and actually deserves the full backstab effect.

Also, about the realism thing: it's not just about being surprised that first strike, it's also mainly about being flanked. It's pretty hard fighting on two fronts at the same time, watching two opponents on opposite sides, trying to defend against their attacks and retaliate. It might seem like it fought a unit first, then it fights the backstabbing unit, but it's a bia created by the turn-based nature of the game. You could also think of it like a player's turn happening all at once in reality. Makes much more sense then.

Also, it's a game, the point of it is not to be as realistic as possible, so the realism argument is a bit moot but still, I thought I was gonna humor you.

[Gyra_Solune]

Currently the two backstabbing units in default are designed entirely around that function. Thieves have exceptionally poor attack without it, and given their fast, dodgy but frail nature, they are clearly meant to go in advance and surround any stray enemy scouts and the like, but they fare very poorly in the main front of a battle, where an opponent is going to be keeping enemies away from their less defended rear. They have just about the highest damage per gold of any unit in the game, and I tend to argue in favor of their utility, but a good player is not going to let many of their units get in a place where they can be so easily exposed. They're also in the Knalgan Alliance, where for just three gold more you can get one of the best frontline melee units in the game in the dwarvish fighter who does roughly similar damage at all times of the day while being way sturdier and almost impossible to displace if they're on favored terrain. However, they level up to great effect, the Rogue is a great gain on the Thief in general, and the poison it gets on level 3 only improves its standing.

Shadows are exceedingly powerful assassin units that are far and away the most terrifying unit the Undead can field - they also completely lose the key functions of a draining melee attack and supporting ranged attack of a combination no units actively resist that make the Ghost and Wraith such effective defensive units. They are probably the most susceptible unit to really messing up someone's day with backstab, considering a tactful player will slide them close to the hero under the cover of darkness and reveal them only when it's time, but that's the undead for you. They have huge enormous weaknesses but can make up for it by being absolutely terrifying in the right hands - on the whole undead units are rewarded greatly for leveling up compared to other factions. The ghost is also hard to get kills on, considering it's on the weak side offensively - they very likely on average gain more of their experience from weathering enemies than they do from actually finishing them off.

[UK1]

Shadows are exceedingly powerful assassin units that are far and away the most terrifying unit the Undead can field.

This is actually why I think the Shadow should be eliminated/replaced/tweaked severely. I don't like when a unit levels/can level into something completely, 100% different. It just seems... stupid. Register these complaints about other units (shaman, white mage, silver mage, etc.) I'd like to see some sort of justification, but I also don't really CARE because it typically only matters for campaigns.

That aside, if the opponent of an Undead player fears anything more than his DA's he doesn't deserve a Shadow.

I don't really like backstab because it's a sort of odd man out. Other than the Shadow (which I already think should be gotten rid of or replaced with a more ghost-like unit) the thief is the only unit that uses backstab. It almost feels like they made the Shadow because they had this ability sitting around. I don't think there's anything wrong with it, though. I certainly don't think either of the units that have it are OP. If the Shadow retained drain it would be freakishly OP and I might even try spamming ghosts in MP just to try and level one of them. But as it stands they're both fine.

And UMC is people doing what they want. Some if it's run like a project and is quite good. Some of it is run by just a guy who had a dream and isn't very good at all, like Khalifa. But even that's optional.

[Gyra_Solune]

But it already has a ghost-like promotion. The Shadow still has the same resists and moving type of the ghost, it's just changed out its armament, which is a very very common thing for alternate promotions. And I very much like the Shadow's concept! It's wonderful to play with because the savvy player can totally blindside someone with it and then suddenly people will wig out because, oh crap, there's a ghost who is completely invisible and can completely murder my units around I can't leave anyone around! It is spooky! And fits with the undead's theme of being surprising and a bit erratic and menacing in spite of their glaring, obvious weaknesses by clever utilization of the effective tools they have.

And I am in favor of finding alternate applications for abilities! In fact I find it slightly odd when a special or ability is entirely exclusive to one unit (looking at you, concealment only being on a single level 3 unit) because they can be used in a lot of creative ways. ...like Concealment! How it could be used on a normal unit is interesting! The Windsong is a lovely example of this by using teleport, of all things, on one of their standard units. Most of the faction's units are not very good, being expensive, frail, and doing exceedingly little damage, with their only exception being instead really slow and only really useful defensively. But then they get this unassuming level 0 unit that just floats around and teleports and suddenly the game completely changes, because they can both control and amass a ton of territory and reinforce fronts like nobody else can, which suddenly turns the faction into being all about making efficient, surgical strikes and stretching the absolute limit of what you can do with a unit that, teleporting aside, is poor in all other respects, but which has the capacity to pen your opponent in and deprive them of resources unless they play atypically defensively against a faction that carries very little offensive power. It is that kind of thing that makes me think it is in fact a good thing to put formerly exclusive abilities on other units and devise interesting strategies like that.

or maybe I'm just weird and gushing about how cool Windsong is as usual