Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

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DeCoolest_Cat
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Re: Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

Post by DeCoolest_Cat » March 2nd, 2016, 12:40 pm

beetlenaut wrote:Actually, I do think it would be possible to do the battle mentioned in Dead Water, but only if the player played the orcs.
That doesn't sound like a bad idea, if our only orc scenario is Sire's woodcutting one. It would also be a different, as you almost never fight against mermen (not that I can remember)
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DeCoolest_Cat
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Re: Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

Post by DeCoolest_Cat » March 12th, 2016, 1:47 am

To everyone that cares about this, I have published The Price of Capture, the ogre campaign I mentioned before.

While creating the campaign, I thought of how to select the scenarios. So, Idea A: There is a campaign called The Library, and each difficulty is a different scenario (much like Five Fates). The different scenarios don't necessarily have to be harder or easier than each other. Idea B: There are 3 campaigns; Common Knowledge, The Library, and The Archives. Common Knowledge is for easy/beginner scenarios, The Library is for intermediate scenarios, and The Archives are for hard scenarios. Obviously, this can be more fleshed out. Of course it could also be what Kwandulin put in his picture.
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skeptical_troll
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Re: Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

Post by skeptical_troll » March 12th, 2016, 10:57 am

Hi DeCoolest_cat,
I was having a trying, nice scenario, I love playing with ogres!
Few things:
1) there is a missing/white frame for the ogre smasher (cool unit!) defense, so the unit disappears and it looks a bit weird
2) I had to look at the WML to understand the mechanic of capturing. In practice my ogres are converted if they are surrounded either by enemies or allies, or a mixture of the two. I am not sure if this is intended but it does not make much sense to me (why should an ogre surrounded by friends decide to start fighting all of them?). At the beginning I thought that they would change side if they are surrounded by enemies. This made me stop playing because basically all my ogres in the front line betrayed me :( :( Anyway since this is something the AI will not be able to deal with, I fear it might became a bit casual.

Also, I noticed there are no villages near the area where the fight sould occur (well, depends on the strategy of course..), but because of the thing above it is impossible for me to tell how hard the scenario could be.
I'd also suggest to open e dedicated thread in the 'scenario & campaign development', people will notice it more and you'll likely get more feedback!

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Re: Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

Post by Eagle_11 » March 12th, 2016, 4:50 pm

for:
1) you must have typed path, image name wrong or it doesnt exist at all.
2) you have to additionally filter not enemy of unitside.

scenario idea:
maybe we can have Auction-X with an unit auction mechanic. It would function like:
Once the game has reached 4 turns, every turn a new unit is spawned and placed on an isolated "conveyor belt" part of the map that slowly advances from right to left, players can bid for any unit in the queue, the "conveyor belt" is like 6 hex long, once the unit that is being bid upon has reached the trapdoor end on this "conveyor belt" it gets teleported adjacent to leader of whomever was the highest bidder and switches to that player's side. Alternatively it can just enter his recall list. The queue advances towards left every turn and a new unit is spawned.
There mostly spawns level 1 of, occasionally an level 2 and rarely an level 3 unit, the unit can be of any mp faction so this allows to get units you normally cant recruit. A player can bid as many gold on an unit as he wishes, but has to be careful since there is undead ai in the middle and the other players.

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DeCoolest_Cat
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Re: Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

Post by DeCoolest_Cat » March 12th, 2016, 5:21 pm

Eagle_11 wrote:for:
1) you must have typed path, image name wrong or it doesnt exist at all.
2) you have to additionally filter not enemy of unitside.
1. I have fixed that, and added some new images.
2. I am in the process of fixing that right now, and it should be ready in a bit
Author of beta campaign Kalbruk's Journey - My art thread - My collection of single player scenarios: The Archives

Jabie
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Re: Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

Post by Jabie » March 21st, 2016, 10:12 am

A long time back I suggested that Wesnoth should have an expansion pack which contained the best of the UMC that fit into the Wesnoth timeline. The idea of the expansion pack was that it was not downloaded with the main game and thus could be a larger download than normal. It also wouldn't be limited to Campaigns (although that would be the primary focus), but could also contain the best multiplayer maps, eras and all the necessary music and graphics mods) Mainline Scenarios sounds like an idea which would fit very well into an expansion pack.

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Re: Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

Post by zookeeper » April 26th, 2016, 11:17 am

I can't come up with a diplomatic way of saying this, so pardon me for being blunt.

I've tried 6 of these scenarios, and none of them were really to my taste. If there's a developer who thinks otherwise then they're of course welcome to pick up the mainlining effort, but I can't really take it upon myself to mainline things I don't have a particularly positive impression of. I wish it wasn't so, since the idea itself is still good.

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Re: Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

Post by Aldarisvet » April 26th, 2016, 1:20 pm

If you devs let us that little, trifling thing we asking ('Get more campaigns' button in the bottom of Campaign menu which would download pack of UMC campaigns selected by the community) there would be no interest from authors anymore to mainline their work. They would like to get into that "selected UMC pack" instead.
Authors of UMC will find their audience finally and players will quite fast discover potential of UMC. Finished, polished and beloved by community.
So there would be no need in such self-restraint things as mainline scenarios.
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Re: Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

Post by Kwandulin » April 26th, 2016, 4:38 pm

How do you come to the conclusion that scenarios are in any way a restraining framework? People were asking explicitly for scenarios and not for campaigns since scenarios can indeed fill niches that campaigns can not. They can fill smaller plotholes, make use of different gameplay mechanics (e.g. not being able to recall, woodchopping, not being able to recruit and fighting with a given army), allow non-traditional settings (e.g. fighting as ogres), focus more on tactics than on the story (a campaign with a small context won't work, a scenario does (in case of the Woodcutters scenario for example)) and finally, playing a scenario throws the player directly into the middle of the action. Most campaigns can't do that (we are talking about mainline campaigns here). It seems to me that scenarios broaden the framework in which Wesnoth acts.
Aldarisvet wrote:If you devs let us that little, trifling thing we asking [...] there would be no interest from authors anymore to mainline their work.
I doubt that. Are there even current attempts of UMC authors to get their campaign/scenario into mainline? I'm lurking in the IRC for some time now and I've never seen a non-dev get into the chat and ask the devs if they got the time to check their campaign/scenario in order to evaluate wether that's something that fits to mainline or not. I've seen devs showing interest in mainlining certain UMC, though. I don't think the dev-bashing, that seems to get more popular these days, is fair. I also don't think that it's a sign of good manners to dictate the devs what to do, since it's their free-time. Most of them are normal people (and some are apparently undeads who are working on Wesnoth in the middle of the night and feed on code) that love Wesnoth - just as the players do - and that are just as interested in making Wesnoth awesome.

The next steps regarding the scenarios should be to get some scenarios of a high-quality level. I agree with zookeeper, that most of the existing scenarios don't quite feel like that, yet. I can't say that to Sire's amazing Woodcutter scenario, though, which is a lot of fun and looks very polished already. The community could try to support Sire by giving him feedback - and then convince the devs why the scenario is worth mainlining.

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Re: Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

Post by Aldarisvet » April 26th, 2016, 6:27 pm

2 Kwandulin

Well you have your point but the pure fact is - the game is stopped to develop because from 2007 there only two mainline campaigns presented. Something improving but at the very low pace. The game finally would die if you would make a simple extrapolation about what is happening. Would the game die, all that was done would be for nothing, would be just not enough. Everything would die eventually but some processes are too visible. You should be pedaling you bicycle fast enough otherwise you will fall.
If you is in charge, then you responsible for everything happening, paradoxically you even responsible if UMC authors cannot provide a content that would be good enough and would fit you. Its a tough words but that is true.
I am doing my translation work and support facebook page and I am responsible for what I am doing. I have my clear goal with number of subscribers and I am going to it. And I am not advertising non-Wesnoth projects in that facebook page, for example ;)

Anycase I see that if devs will give some space to UMC creators, the game will get much of it. I am not demanding anything, I am getting fun of studying how this all works but I have a habit to say stright what I think.
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Re: Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

Post by Sire » April 26th, 2016, 6:59 pm

Regarding mainline status, one day I would like to see Red Winter (and the entire Lasoreth Saga, if I ever get around to it) somewhat incorporated into mainline, but I know that campaign is nowhere near the quality it needs to be (At bare minimum, portraits and proper sprites are needed, then I have to get around to balancing everything and double checking for lore inconsistencies) and is nowhere near complete. It's a far off goal, so I'm not too concerned about advocating for its inclusion as of present. I would also like to see a proper Drake and Khalifate campaign incorporated into mainline as well.

I enjoy Mainline Wesnoth and would like to see it improved, as I have said elsewhere. Once I am done with my projects (Red Winter and a proper set of scenarios for "Sire's Scenarios"), I would like to work on Delfador's Memoirs and see how I can improve upon that campaign. If I receive the blessings of the community and developers, I may try and look at working on other mainline campaigns as well.

As for pushing things into mainline, I would really like to see mainline scenarios become a reality (which was the original proposition of this thread by skeptical_troll). I love the idea of mainline scenarios as it reminds of the Mission Discs back from the old Command and Conquer days (Covert Operations, Counterstrike, Aftermath, and other various standalone missions). Like Kwandulin has said, scenarios have their place as they can present a challenging opportunity, unique gameplay mechanic, fill in plot holes, and are generally easy to pick up and play, not to mention create versus an entire campaign. The problem, of course, is creating a high-quality scenario to play.

@ Aldarisvet

I disagree that Wesnoth stopped developing since 2007. There have been many additions and improvements since then, but they may not be obvious like a brand new campaign and the like. As I have stated elsewhere, Eastern Invasion has recieved updated portraits within the last year and there is an overhaul going on for Under the Burning Suns (portraits, revamped faction, and who knows what else is in store). Currently, there are being improvements to terrain by doofus-01, and there is the ongoing effort to revise and update descriptions by Gyra_Solune.

Yes, Wesnoth development is "slow", but that is because it is fueled by the passion of its creators as a hobby. There is no real "paid developer" (that I know of) working on Wesnoth as a full time job. People take "WesBreaks" and do something else before rediscovering Wesnoth again. Yes, there had not really been a "grand update" for Wesnoth in some time. However, Wesnoth is far from dead, for it is was, then why are we all here?
Current Projects: [Sire's Scenarios] // [Red Winter Reborn - In Development]

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skeptical_troll
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Re: Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

Post by skeptical_troll » April 26th, 2016, 7:45 pm

When I suggested the idea, I wrote it from a player perspective who wanted a different kind of content (available in many other strategy games), not as a fall-back because campaigns are too difficult to create and maintain.
Given that this thread is only ~3-4 months old, I think it is no surprise that what has been proposed is raw and unpolished (although I liked some of the ideas in the scenarios, and I think that 'forward they cried' is good). There is no reason to expect that the ratio of good to bad content of scenario is better than campaign. Actually I think that designing good scenarios is more difficult than creating good campaign (apart from length, obviously) because there is no story to make up for boring game play. So there is quite no alternative to an 'attempt and fail' approach.

To facilitate the creation of high-quality scenarios, the only things I may think of (beside encouraging anybody of having a go on it) is to come up with a 'scenario design how-to' as it exists for campaigns. Some of the more experienced developer who has no time himself for creating scenario may come up with something, if he thinks it is worth the investment.

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Re: Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

Post by Aldarisvet » April 26th, 2016, 8:29 pm

Possibly I was not clear with my posts there.
The game badly needs something new to play. Imagine that you an owner of the campany that have not changed the design of the site for 10 years, even if your site is working seemingly good. But your clients looking on your site would think that something wrong with your company because all your competitors made redesign 2-3-4 times during the period.
A game need new gameplay, new special abilities, new stories and heroes. A game need a renewal over time. Look at the every damned known successive game.
It is appeared that for different reasons it is hard to get a new campaign mainlined and possibly a mainline scenario would be a good solution, something new to add. Good, at least something new! But now I hear that it is probably harder to make a good scenario than a campaign :augh:
Well, I agree that scenario is another and intresting form of content and it is not an easy task to put a really deep, intense, rich gameplay just in the one scenario. But... :doh:
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Re: Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

Post by DeCoolest_Cat » April 27th, 2016, 1:41 am

zookeeper wrote:I've tried 6 of these scenarios, and none of them were really to my taste. If there's a developer who thinks otherwise then they're of course welcome to pick up the mainlining effort, but I can't really take it upon myself to mainline things I don't have a particularly positive impression of. I wish it wasn't so, since the idea itself is still good.
Could you elaborate?

Everyone knows it's harder to make a good storyline for a single scenario. Would it be that, or is it the premise of the scenarios. Or, would it be that there is a lack of animations and portraits for some units?
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Re: Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

Post by Lord-Knightmare » May 14th, 2016, 7:21 pm

Okay, so I am still working on the single scenario involving the elves as the playable race. The scenario is a dungeon-crawl and involves eradicating an undead horde and has a...[SPOILER_BLOCK]. I need more custom undead units. Can anybody suggest me an add-on where I can borrow some cool undead units?
Everyone knows it's harder to make a good storyline for a single scenario.
QFT
The game badly needs something new to play. Imagine that you an owner of the campany that have not changed the design of the site for 10 years, even if your site is working seemingly good. But your clients looking on your site would think that something wrong with your company because all your competitors made redesign 2-3-4 times during the period.
I agree. We need new campaigns. However, resurrecting abandoned campaign ideas would not be a bad idea either. The forum's Scenario&Campaign Development and Writer's Forum threads are filled with story plots that have been abandoned (and some of them were good too). I recall some good ones like:
  • Epic of Jalin (Kanzil named it initially as Rise/Wrath of the Dragon-King?)
  • Return of Kalenz
    (After his appearance in HttT, Kalenz got taken to Faerie land he stayed there long after the Fall and he decides to make his return)
  • The White Lich
    Saw being made into a campaign, but the story is rather unfinished
  • The Silver Lands
    Been waiting for this one to be finished like forever
  • Wings of Victory
    Was supposed to be mainlined. Abandoned with no chance ever being finished unless someone decides to finish the scenarios.
Yeah, I am back from my long Wesbreak. Expect more HoI1 content and a new scenario from me.

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