Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

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Sire
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Re: Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

Post by Sire » January 15th, 2016, 8:43 pm

I agree that hiding these extra scenarios under Multiplayer -> Local Game -> Game Type: scenarios is a bad idea, so that is why I came up with the hub world concept so it makes sense being listed in the main campaign menu. I also like Kwandulin's sketch of how it may be incorporated*, but having a separate menu option may prove to be the better choice in the long run if we open up submissions to more than story scenarios.

Currently, I'm in the mindset of expanding upon existing lore, so the scenarios I see would obviously fall under Campaigns. However, if we also include what skeptical_troll is requesting, we can also have another category for stand-alone challenge scenarios or just fun one-off scenarios in general. A New Land, Dark Forecast, and Survival 6P would fall in this category. In addition, if we implement Chewan's suggestion, there can be a "Demo" category for UMC scenarios, with maybe a scenario or two being implemented into the core game so other players can have a taste of add-on campaigns.

With all of this implemented, I see...

1: New Menu Option, between Tutorial and Campaign.
2: Menu UI uses Kwandulin's sketch as a base, but instead of all the different campaigns on the left, there would be three categories: Missions, Scenarios, and Demos.
2a Missions: These maps focus on story and mainline, essentially the suggestion of expanding on existing lore.
2b Scenarios: These maps focus more on tactical challenges and unique gameplay mechanics not found in normal Wesnoth. A New Land, Dark Forecast, and Survival 6P would fall into this category.
2c Demos: Demos would feature top-rated UMC add-ons to get players interested in UMC campaigns. There would be a disclaimer that these stories are not part of mainline history and the overall story of Wesnoth.

How does all that sound?

* In my original plans, I would have created a map and the player would have to move the scholar to a certain space to begin the scenario, with the "hub map" being decorated and stuff.
Current Projects: [Sire's Scenarios] // [Red Winter Reborn - In Development]

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Re: Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

Post by skeptical_troll » January 15th, 2016, 9:13 pm

I'm aware we may be carried away here, however, how about:

the player choose a faction he would like to play.
For each of this faction there's one of Sire's 'hub world', like the library for the Khalifate, some sanctuary for the elves (or wherever the elves go), a cave with inscription for dwarves, etc etc.

This might also provide an easy way to subdivide scenarios in subsets with a decent size for maintenance etc..

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Re: Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

Post by beetlenaut » January 15th, 2016, 9:56 pm

I remember a good single-scenario "campaign" that was posted on the add-on server a few years ago. It involved defending a bridge with loyalists against orcs I think. Maybe someone remembers more about it (like the name maybe) and can find it. I suspect that creating good single-scenario missions would be more difficult than most people think, but the one I am talking about is an example.
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Re: Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

Post by Adamant14 » January 15th, 2016, 11:35 pm

beetlenaut wrote:I remember a good single-scenario "campaign" that was posted on the add-on server a few years ago. It involved defending a bridge with loyalists against orcs I think. Maybe someone remembers more about it (like the name maybe) and can find it. I suspect that creating good single-scenario missions would be more difficult than most people think, but the one I am talking about is an example.
Forward They Cried / Forum Threat
Forward They Cried / Guide to UMC Content
Last edited by Adamant14 on January 16th, 2016, 8:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Author of Antar, Son of Rheor ( SP Campaign) | Development Thread + Feedback Thread + Replays of ASoR

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Re: Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

Post by zookeeper » January 15th, 2016, 11:53 pm

The way the scenarios would be accessed is of course quite secondary to the scenarios themselves, but that said, personally I don't think there should be some kind of hub scenario and/or in-universe fluff in the form of a scholar or something to connect them all. I'd much rather see them presented in a more typical wargame fashion (roughly along the lines of Kwandulin's mock-up), with each scenario being clearly self-contained and neatly accessed from the game's actual interface.

Hub scenarios are inherently pretty awkward in a turn-based game, even if the idea of a semi-in-universe hub sounds nice in theory. In practise you end up going through a loading screen just so you get to read instructions saying that you're in a hub and have to move a unit around a map devoid of any gameplay in order to choose what to play, after which you get to watch another loading screen after which you finally get to where you wanted to be in the first place. It quickly becomes annoying if the game makes you go through all that when obviously it could just let you choose what you want to play right away.

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Re: Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

Post by beetlenaut » January 16th, 2016, 2:47 am

That's the one, although my "a few years" turned out to be seven!
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Re: Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

Post by Lord-Knightmare » January 16th, 2016, 6:54 am

I support this concept of adding a 'scenarios' section to the game. Instead of crafting an interesting story to conclude with an epic battle, UMC authors can easily make just one scenario with a summarised intro. This might be true only for the mainline historical events such as the Betrayal at Abez, Reclaiming the Throne (HttT final battle scenario), Rise of Knalga (death-match between Dwarves and Trolls), Showdown at Wesmere (the battle between Zhangor and Elynia and Argan), but it is also possible to make scenarios with non-mainline plots (I have a few good ones in my mind). Currently, the only way to do this would be to make single-scenario campaigns so I am hoping for this feature to be added to the game.

As for Forward They Cried, I am frankly surprised that I am listed as a maintainer when all I did was port to the 1.10 server (actually, it needs no maintenance since it has no bugs whatsoever). I might even port it to 1.12.x and 1.13.x.

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Re: Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

Post by Chewan » January 16th, 2016, 1:25 pm

Off topic
Spoiler:

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Re: Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

Post by GunChleoc » January 16th, 2016, 8:17 pm

I think this is a good idea - scenarios could be hooked into the UI the same way that the tutorial or the campaigns overview is. So, coding effort should be small (except for the coding of the actual scenarios, of course).
Whiskeyjack wrote:b) If this stuff is officially included, it will have (would be nice) to be translated. That doesn´t apply to a lot of the reffered campaigns though and translating all of UMC... well, we´d need a lot more voluntaries.
Adding some new scenarios doesn't mean that all UMC needs to be translated - it is up to each translation team if the manage to translate any referenced UMC campaigns as well. For my language, I have only managed to translate 3 campaigns so far anyway. So, having some shorter bits to translate would also make it easier to get more translated content.

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Re: Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

Post by Sire » January 17th, 2016, 6:32 pm

All right, so the common consensus thus far seems to be that stand-alone scenarios are a good idea, and implementation may be done as a separate option on the main menu.

Now for the hard part. As it stands, there are only really three mainline scenarios that fit this new category, but they are more multiplayer focused than single player. Are there any existing UMC stand-alone scenarios good enough to be packaged together with mainline, and is there anyone willing to make a scenario or two that can possibly be implemented into this hypothetical system?

I am currently experimenting with a standalone Northerner scenario where the player is tasked to cut down forests for the Northerner war effort, being pitted against Loyalist and Elvish units. To make things more difficult, only Goblins (not Wolf Riders) are allowed to gather lumber, and the Elves have a fortified city in the area. I am currently thinking about cutting forests giving gold to the player, but the ultimate objective is to amass a certain amount of gold. So, the player has to balance between saving gold to accomplish the objective and spending gold to defend the woodcutting operation.

Of course, it has just been a couple of days, but I rather work on an idea while its fresh before I forget about it and focus on other matters. Are there any others who are willing to make a stand-alone scenario, or at least perhaps find ones that exist that can be implemented should this idea go through?

* * * * * Edit * * * * *

So I ran into a problem when attempting to work on my test scenario. As I tend to work on campaigns and not multiplayer maps, the exact WML differences between the two still somewhat elude me.

When I added in my latest change to force_lock_settings=yes, I crash Wesnoth due to an assertion error in Microsoft Visual C++ Runtime Library. However, simply commenting out the force lock setting allows the setup process to proceed as normal, and I can play the map. For further details, please download the attachment which has a photo of the problem as well as my test scenario in question.
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Re: Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

Post by skeptical_troll » January 17th, 2016, 11:03 pm

The nice bridge scenario linked above is more or less what I had in mind, and for me it could be one of the package, even if it has not a clear connection to the history of Wesnoth (at the moment).

As for who/how will build the scenario, I don't know how it works here as I'm pretty new to the forum, but I suppose some input from the developers is needed before starting making them.
Simplest thing is of course that anybody eager of making scenarios will upload them on the server and then somebody will choose the best ones somehow. This sounds a bit like a 'blind' process however, and there is the risk of having multiple people working on the 'betrayal of the Ford of Abez' etc etc. I don't know how it happend with the mainline campaigns, for example.

However, I think that many people would be happy to participate, I personally have a limited experience as I just made a campaign but that was good fun.

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Re: Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

Post by Pentarctagon » January 17th, 2016, 11:30 pm

Sire wrote:So I ran into a problem when attempting to work on my test scenario. As I tend to work on campaigns and not multiplayer maps, the exact WML differences between the two still somewhat elude me.

When I added in my latest change to force_lock_settings=yes, I crash Wesnoth due to an assertion error in Microsoft Visual C++ Runtime Library. However, simply commenting out the force lock setting allows the setup process to proceed as normal, and I can play the map. For further details, please download the attachment which has a photo of the problem as well as my test scenario in question.
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Re: Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

Post by gfgtdf » January 18th, 2016, 3:26 am

@Sire this is likeley to be casued by invalid values for important attributes in [side]
Scenario with Robots SP scenario (1.11/1.12), allows you to build your units with components, PYR No preperation turn 1.12 mp-mod that allows you to select your units immideately after the game begins.

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Re: Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

Post by Lord-Knightmare » January 18th, 2016, 6:17 pm

Are there any existing UMC stand-alone scenarios good enough to be packaged together with mainline, and is there anyone willing to make a scenario or two that can possibly be implemented into this hypothetical system?
Forwards They Cried is a good candidate for Scenarios. I can make a few scenarios (plot suggestions are welcomed). I believe that it is best that we focus on making scenarios for every faction. We might already have one for the Loyalists.

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Re: Mainline 'Scenarios' (together with campaigns)

Post by Lord-Knightmare » January 20th, 2016, 11:59 am

Is it possible to implement everything in a single file? This could make coding scenarios a lot easier than they currently (instead of making a campaign _main.cfg every time). Here is an example of what I am referring to:
Spoiler:

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