[mainline] Add Aragwaith to mainline

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StandYourGround
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Re: [mainline] Add Aragwaith to mainline

Post by StandYourGround »

Just a comment on the "association doesn't matter" argument: Generally I agree. But please be consistent. If it's not a big deal that a faction contains apparent references to Islam, then it also shouldn't be a big deal for a White Mage's staff to resemble a cross, or for the Paladin portrait to have such symbolism on the breastplate. I've lurked these forums for a while, and recall the discussions on both of those "issues." In short, when you're cool with not having to replace every cross with an ankh, then I'm cool with a Caliphate in the middle of a magical fantasy land with no prior context in lore. Consistency, please. :whistle:

As for the idea of changing names to imply more of a generic Eastern feel, it certainly has been done successfully before. Consider as one example the Calormen of C.S. Lewis' Narnia series.
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Xara
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Re: [mainline] Add Aragwaith to mainline

Post by Xara »

StandYourGround wrote:If it's not a big deal that a faction contains apparent references to Islam, then it also shouldn't be a big deal for a White Mage's staff to resemble a cross, or for the Paladin portrait to have such symbolism on the breastplate.
If they use fire attack type instead of arcane, which has an implication of genuine holiness. :P


On the other hand, imho, cross and Khalifate are not the references of the same kind.
I think the fear of inclusion of a religion into the fantasy world is more about afraiding that "the lame reference becomes a mockery of our religion" than about afraiding that "it suggests their religions are superior". Obviously most of you don't have the first kind of the concern with Khalifate, but probably not with Christianity. Imo, the most serious problem with the inclusion of cross symbol is that it can create issues on its background stories("Do we need a Crucifixion of Prophet story? And how should it be?") and related doctrines and effects ("Should the Wesnothian human be governed by the idea of sin for centuries? And should they turn out to find it but a superstitious belief?"). As a contrast, iiuc, "Caliphate" basically means something like "a nation governed by a Caliph ("successor")"; and in Wesnoth version, a Khalifate is just a nation governed by a Khalid, whose title originated from a legendary leader of old that is known for his "piety and skill". What piety? No detail. In nowhere are the doctrines of the Khalifate specified, you can't even tell whether they hold ancient Bedouin beliefs or the Islamic ones from the description.
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Aldarisvet
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Re: [mainline] Add Aragwaith to mainline

Post by Aldarisvet »

shadowm wrote:For the 1,000th time, we are not going to remove the Khalifate or change the faction’s theme.

(See also: this post.)

Changed the topic’s subject accordingly. Any further posts questioning the Khalifate’s inclusion or the faction’s theme or debating social issues will be deleted.
Well, we in Russia have a proverb:
"The owner is the ruler."

I will not do things you proclaimed prohibited, but still I want to say a couple of things about a fraction, despite it is offtopic now (no need to create new topic for sure).

Thank you for the link, through it I find other your post with more links, and finally discussions with Noy himself.
So I clearly understood, that the things I percieved as mistakes which prevents developing of fraction, is deliberately made things.
Islam/arabic connotation is deliberately made, and the trespassing of classical fantasy genre borders is deliberately made.
Noy wrote: I started the Khalifate about nine years ago, in part due to my experiences living among muslims, my work at the time and studies. Since then many people have played key roles in helping put together the art, stats, balance and background. Several people who assisted were muslims who were enthusiastic about what I was attempting to do.
....
I wanted something that had the tradition of the Hamzanama, and other great works in Islamic mythology/storytelling. I wondered what it would be like to have a faithful people, with a highly developed culture, be placed in completely unfamiliar surroundings. In many ways I thought it would parallel the early history of the Islamic people, facing the very same challenges. I want to make this tasteful and faithful to the tradition that it comes from.
Well, I can understand that. Not sure I can accept that. That someome trying to teach me something about foreigners real religion in fantasy game which I play for fun. Of course, this may teach the world to be more tolerant. Also this may help to spread the game amongst arabian speakers.
But in fact people initially do not expect this in classical fantasy game. I myself did not expected it, and I could not blame myself for it. So people's reaction is absolutely logical. And moreover, the fraction is on so undeveloped position, that it even could not implement functions, designed by the author, and only creates a questions. Well. I am no way blaming anyone, I just share my impressions.
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GunChleoc
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Re: [mainline] Add Aragwaith to mainline

Post by GunChleoc »

Note that Noy said "mythology/storytelling" and you are saying "religion". These are not the same thing! Classical Western Fantasy is based on Christian/pre-Christian Western mythology/storytelling, but you don't feel that Christianity is being rammed down your throat by it, are you? So, why in the other case? It's the same thing ;)

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Re: [mainline] Add Aragwaith to mainline

Post by Gidoza »

GunChleoc wrote:Note that Noy said "mythology/storytelling" and you are saying "religion". These are not the same thing! Classical Western Fantasy is based on Christian/pre-Christian Western mythology/storytelling, but you don't feel that Christianity is being rammed down your throat by it, are you? So, why in the other case? It's the same thing ;)


There's a big difference between the two, though. We have a random cross here (White Mage), some Native spirituality there (Elves/Faeries), but these have been incorporated generally into the Fantasy genre and are in no way blatant - yeah, the symbolism is present, but in no way would I consider any of the factions to be somehow "Christian" or "Native" or "Hindu." Khalifate is blatantly Muslim. I have NOTHING against Muslim imagery been incorporated into the game - but to have an entire faction based around it totally clashes with the whole notion of Fantasy and is out of sync with the rest of the factions insofar as they display religious imagery. Needs toning down, severely.

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Eagle_11
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Re: [mainline] Add Aragwaith to mainline

Post by Eagle_11 »

I think that's a great idea. Then we could have an MP "core" era--separate from "default" era--which is under no balance obligations (its whole point would be to provide introductions to non-default core units or provide a unique game). Plus once extra units/factions are available in "core" but not "default" you'd continue to get balancing feedback from those using "core" era which could be helpful if there was ever a move to merge units from "core" to "default". With this setup, nearly any complete (or nearly so) faction animation-wise could be added to the "core" era without breaking current MP balancing. Then there could be no "default+<faction>" there would be "default" and "core" with well-balanced factions moved from "core" to "default" as time goes on.
'Modular faction's that you can simply plug and play into the default era instead having one "default+<faction>" per installment is something i do also wonder about.
Perhaps an hacky solution would be possible through our current tickbox-used mods.
The mod itself would only be the infrastructure, that looks for certain specially structured for this wml(or lua) if its included within the faction's folder to auto-read from, then adding it to the selection of available factions for the era(s) this faction can be plugged into, pointed out to the mod through this wml(or lua) that was included in the faction's folder.

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Aldarisvet
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Re: [mainline] Add Aragwaith to mainline

Post by Aldarisvet »

GunChleoc wrote:Note that Noy said "mythology/storytelling" and you are saying "religion". These are not the same thing! Classical Western Fantasy is based on Christian/pre-Christian Western mythology/storytelling, but you don't feel that Christianity is being rammed down your throat by it, are you? So, why in the other case? It's the same thing ;)
Tolkien's Lord of the Ring, is of course, a deeply Christain book.
But. There is nothing in the text of this book directly or indirectly about Christianity. There are no churches, no crosses, no prayers, no christian rituals in Middle-earth. Nothing formal. The Professor presented his ideas so skilfully, with allegorical meaning, that his values, such as self-sacrifice, is presented in behaviour of heroes. His book in the spirit, not in the form.

And totally NOTHING of this spirit retained in modern fantasy. Yes, the form prevailed. This form is about elves, magic and so more, based on pre-Christianity, and no way by Christianity. Yes, this is a cool form, but it is just a form.
So I can no way feel that Christianity rammed me somehow in Wesnoth. Conversely, fantasy gave a huge impetus for developing modern 'paganism'. The last thing The Professor would like to be done.
So telling that a modern fantasy is based on Christianity - wow, this is really nonsense for me. I myself was really surprised when many repeatedly argued with this. Fantasy is a totally modern thing, like sciense fiction, or, very far but appropriate example, like communism/socialism. It is definetely not about christian civilization.

And about that fraction - for now it is just a pure form and not spirit, and I have a deep feeling that something wrong with the situation. Well, if someone would try to mainline Irwim fraction, I would feel exactly the same. If someone want to tell spiritual ideas of islam, why not doing it allegorical, as The Professor did?
________________________________________
... Well, I thought about it and really found, that would I wanted to make western people to be more tolerate to muslim people, for example, I would take a form that would not fear or push them away. For example, I would take the same Aragwaith for this purpurse, and I would take not desert environment, but conversely, forest environment, and in that from I would show that islam ideas are really great.
Looks like really good plan for me, I would like it if I needed to do something like this.
Last edited by Aldarisvet on April 30th, 2015, 8:14 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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iceiceice
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Re: [mainline] Add Aragwaith to mainline

Post by iceiceice »

So actually I had the opposite impression, I feel christian imagery did somewhat "ram me" when I first played wesnoth. If I had been 16 years old I think probably I would have written off the game :P not that I didn't play Diablo, but Diablo is much more "dark" than Wesnoth which somehow compensates it I think for an angsty 16 year old.

But instead I was a bit older and not so much knee-jerk about such things like that. The game play was quite good and that was obviously the most important thing.

I think the references to islam are not much stronger than the references to christianity. If you actually read the unit descriptions and associated text there's very little, and the units themselves just look like "bedouin", like Xara pointed out. The only thing that could be contentious is the name... so many e-trees have been killed over this name :P

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Re: [mainline] Add Aragwaith to mainline

Post by Aldarisvet »

iceiceice wrote:So actually I had the opposite impression, I feel christian imagery did somewhat "ram me" when I first played wesnoth. If I had been 16 years old I think probably I would have written off the game :P not that I didn't play Diablo, but Diablo is much more "dark" than Wesnoth which somehow compensates it I think for an angsty 16 year old.
The first game I remember clerics and paladins appeared was Warcraft I.
So say thank to Blizzard about it.
Havent you played it?
Wow I just remembered there were Orcish Necrolytes, who were able to animate dead. Orcish necromants, can you imagine?
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Re: [mainline] Add Aragwaith to mainline

Post by ChaosRider »

Aldarisvet wrote: Wow I just remembered there were Orcish Necrolytes, who were able to animate dead. Orcish necromants, can you imagine?
Yup Gothic and cult of dreamer, there were orcs able to cast spells.
iceiceice wrote:I think the references to islam are not much stronger than the references to christianity.
But if you make mad christian he wont visit you in your home with bomb at own neck or on the back with smile on his face...

Maybe they have need to bring to Wesnoth more islam players by this Khalifate faction.
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