[mainline] Add Aragwaith to mainline

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Implementor37
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Re: [mainline] Replace Khalifate with Aragwaith

Post by Implementor37 »

bumbadadabum wrote:
The Aragwaith, on the other hand, already have a well-defined story from UMC--they are an ancient civilization which originally inhabited the Green Isle before moving to Irdya long before TRoW. Pockets still survive in remote/isolated locations in Irdya. They would simply need to show up a few times in UMC (maybe even their own campaign...) to be included in "Default" under this reasoning.
[citation needed]
[citation]
PM with Lord Knightmare wrote:If you read the timeline, then the Aragwaithi are the indigenous people of the Green Isle. Haldric's people were natives of Argea.
Here's the link for that timeline: Timeline of Ancient Irdya (Un-official). It mostly relies on UMC, but is a pretty well-defined existing timeline.
[/citation]
Xara wrote:As a comparison, what do you know about Aragwaithi? I can only take it that they are a bunch of powerful units dressing in strange clothes. I don't imagine they differ much culturally with Wesnoth human.
The Aragwaith are another human culture which came from the Green Isles, while the loyalists are the Wesnothians who originated from Argea and ended up founding Wesnoth (see the timeline above). Comparing the Aragwaith to the Loyalists would be like comparing the culture of the US to that in Germany--sure they might both be considered "Western" but they are both still very distinct--and this could be accentuated elsewhere. The Loyalists focus on well-rounded units (the Lieutenant has the melee of a spearman and the ranged of a bowman--both lvl 1) while the Aragwaith focus on perfecting one aspect at the exclusion of all else (the Flagbearer has an excellent lvl 2 melee attack, but no ranged. In fact, unlike the spearman which has a ranged attack, none of the Aragwaith melee units have any ranged attack...). In addition, the Aragwaith have an excellent sand defense of 50%--something no other faction gets--saurians, mermen, and nagas are not their own faction after all). This makes the two very different to play--the Aragwaith units with leadership (or the unique complement protection) have excellent melee but no ranged--making them both stronger and weaker simultaneously. The loyalists leaders have weaker attacks, but both melee and ranged lending them another unique role.
Xara wrote: These additional words provide with often limited and possibly inaccurate information and breaks the naming style.
I understand this concern. My examples were conceptual--and not what the actual should replace them. (On a side note, i put these names into Google translate so I could understand what they mean and was VERY confused by the results. Apparently "Arif" is arabic for "wise", which makes 0 sense. "jundi" is arabic for "soldier" and that seems fine, but "muharib" mean "niches" :shock: ? A lot of the unit names work when translated to English--how about using the translated unit names along with traditional arabic-language names for individual units?) I would argue that each translation should strive to keep all units in the respective languages (leaving arabic names to the arabic translation), however, giving individual units arabic names would be fine. Eastern-sounding English names seems more appropriate for the English-translation Khalifate unit-names, but I'm no expert in that area... I just like names that give an indication of the units relative status--I loved how when I first played, even though I had no clue of the exact differences between a Dark Adept, a Dark Sorcerer, and a Necromancer, I could tell from the names which one would be lvl 1, which would be lvl 2, and which would be lvl 3. If possible, I'd like to keep ability going for the Khalifate. If it is preferred to keep the unit names as they are, that's fine. I just wish that I had a textual clue as to which unit was which so every time a Khalifate unit is mentioned on the forums i don't have to immediately go to http://units.wesnoth.org/1.12/mainline/ ... #Khalifate to find out what unit is being discussed...

In addition, if mainlining the Aragwaith is ever seriously considered, I'm willing to help with whatever is needed--I really like the Aragwaith and they are definitely one of my favorites, if not my complete favorite faction.
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Re: [mainline] Replace Khalifate with Aragwaith

Post by taptap »

Arif is indeed derived from the verb "to know", but the term isn't used for some kind of sage, but for non-commissioned officers (corporal afaik), who knows just a little more than fresh recruits. If you ask nicely for a translated Khalifate faction / a name list, some people on the forum might deliver, if that is your concern. (Just changing description names in your local copy may not even break compatibility.)

Also, search function: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... 15#p489975
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Re: [mainline] Replace Khalifate with Aragwaith

Post by Implementor37 »

Now that I see the translations, the names do indeed seem accurate:
Spoiler:
With these translations, would it be possible to write something so that moving the mouse over the unit names displays the translations? (i.e. highlighting "Arif" displays Sergeant, highlighting "Qanas" displays "Sniper") This would allow the current unit names to be used, while providing an easy-reference for unit levels in case you forget which name means what... Then we have nice Arabic unit-names but also a visible list of meanings so that users can equate meanings to the Arabic words. (This seems like it would be relatively easy to do--the code would be similar to the way that weapon specials, traits, and ability descriptions are displayed when moving the mouse over them in 1.12.
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Re: [mainline] Replace Khalifate with Aragwaith

Post by Ravana »

Unit description is what you get on hover there, and I think these meanings would be useful addition.

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Re: [mainline] Replace Khalifate with Aragwaith

Post by bumbadadabum »

Implementor37 wrote:
bumbadadabum wrote:
[citation needed]
[citation]
PM with Lord Knightmare wrote:If you read the timeline, then the Aragwaithi are the indigenous people of the Green Isle. Haldric's people were natives of Argea.
Here's the link for that timeline: Timeline of Ancient Irdya (Un-official). It mostly relies on UMC, but is a pretty well-defined existing timeline.
[/citation]
Xara wrote:As a comparison, what do you know about Aragwaithi? I can only take it that they are a bunch of powerful units dressing in strange clothes. I don't imagine they differ much culturally with Wesnoth human.
The Aragwaith are another human culture which came from the Green Isles, while the loyalists are the Wesnothians who originated from Argea and ended up founding Wesnoth (see the timeline above).
Here we come back to
shadowm wrote:Which Aragwaithi? Last time I checked there were at least four different versions of the same faction around.
Because in my Aragwaithi they only start appearing very late into Wesnoth's timeline, and don't have anything to do with the Ancient Irdya timeline. I can't speak for the other 50 million Aragwaithi though. I think defining which Aragwaithi version we'd use is the first step, and one of the more important ones.

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Re: [mainline] Replace Khalifate with Aragwaith

Post by Implementor37 »

Which Aragwaithi
So why don't we just pick one of the versions of the Aragwaith to mainline, and focus on that one? (Some have extra weapon-specials...etc. Start a thread for the merging of the Aragwaith into mainlineProbably the one with the most complete animations would be the best place to start...maybe a 'default+Aragwaith' tournament for more balancing input (Some versions have extra weapon-specials...etc. Start a thread for the merging of the Aragwaith into mainline, and use tournaments to find which versions are the best balanced and go from there. As mentioned before--I'd be happy to help in any way I can). And you're right--there are really 2 major story-lines for the Aragwaith: a post-Fall-of-Irdya Aragwaith who show up in IftU and AtS, and the ancient-Irdya Aragwaith mentioned in my citation above. Therefore, I think we could make the following timeline assumptions and have the whole thing work:
1) As specified above, the Aragwaith originated from the Green Isles and were a major players in Ancient Irdya
2) <event> happens (could also introduce the Khalifate) removing the Aragwaith from the balance of power. (ex. Arrival of drakes from Morogor...Elvish-Aragwaith War over magical knowledge...Arrival of Khalifate...etc) Aragwaith bands survive in remote and isolated locations--distant enough not to be a threat to Wesnoth (after its founded) but close enough that they are occasionally encountered.
3) Founding of Wesnoth.
4) Most UMC and mainline content
5) Fall of Irdya (2 suns TOD schedule starts here)
6) With the second sun providing scorching heat, much of Irdya turns to desert. The Aragwaith thrive on desert lands (hence their 50% defense) so they begin to make a comeback.
7) After enough time, the Aragwaith are the largest, most powerful human faction after the Fall due to their ability to thrive on deserts.
8) UMC stuff such as IftU and AtS occurs.
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Re: [mainline] Replace Khalifate with Aragwaith

Post by Paulomat4 »

Afaik as i know there are two main versions, with maybe slight differences within those versions.
1. The one version known from the era of chaos and used by invasion from the unknown and after the storm.
2. The ones from the war of legends era and every campaign that derives from that era. (Revansuriks dragon trilogy for example)
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Re: [mainline] Replace Khalifate with Aragwaith

Post by bumbadadabum »

I think we should wait for a MP person's opinion about this.

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Re: [mainline] Replace Khalifate with Aragwaith

Post by Eagle_11 »

Implementor37 wrote: 1) As specified above, the Aragwaith originated from the Green Isles.
In that fiction its stated that Aragwaith are native to the isle, but Haldric's people nor the arriving wesfolk somehow managed to never encounter them ? I mean wesnothians are an exploring and sea-farer nation. Its impossible for them to never have stumbled upon any native species that may happent to reside on the(ir) green isle, considering its far smaller than an continent and it would be illogical for them to look someplace else (but inspecially for new lands across the ocean) before finishing the exploration of their very own landmass.
I dont think the established canon about haldric, his people, and the origins of wesnothians are ever gonna get retconned like that, that just doesnt make sense considering how a civilization develops.

The only, perhaps possible tie-in for Aragwaith into the established lore would be, that they are descendants of wesfolk who also managed to get off the green isle (all on their own, seperate of haldric, perhaps through another port-city) during the exodus, steered in general direction of east and end up drifting in the ocean far off the course causing them to land someplace south than what is today Wesnoth, because they arent, well, not haldric's people that are proficient in sea-faring. Afterwards they would had to pursue an nomadic existence, because reasons that could be like far south wasnt idle elvish property waiting to be sold out to the first arriver, the land already teeming with several species and nations.

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Re: [mainline] Replace Khalifate with Aragwaith

Post by Yomar »

I never use the Khalifa, I always choose default and Im glad that they are not included in the default era it was a good choice to make a default+khalifate era.
I don't like them because they are too "realistic" for a fantasy game like Wesnoth, plus the units have a too confusing graphics, I mean they look to similar one to each other and the names don't help either.
I would have prefered a more fantasy based arabic faction, like with flying carpets, Genies, for example the Al-Kamija from Era Of Magic (also in Ageless Era) are a cool oriental faction with understandable unit names, like Kamel Rider becomes Heavy Kamel Rider, while Carpet Rider becomes Carpet Master at lv2 or Jinn that levels up in Geat Jinn and so on.

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Re: [mainline] Replace Khalifate with Aragwaith

Post by Implementor37 »

Eagle_11 wrote:...
NOTE: I edited this response somewhat to provide some additional citations/explanations of my argument and to avoid double posting. It seems to me that all the major timelines (pre-Wesnoth Irdya and post-Fall Irdya) already include the Aragwaith, so their addition would not break the existing timeline.

That timeline doesn't say that Haldric's people never encoutered them. It says:
Spoiler:
"Seldom" and "Never" are quite different--so my conclusion is that the Aragwaithi did not want to be found and were naturally reclusive/isolationist or they inhabited remote locations. They would still have been encountered every now and then, so if the Aragwaith were mainlined they could be included in campaigns such as TRoW. Besides, if they didn't want to be found, they could have left the Green Isle in order to avoid the Wesfolk...
And there is this in the Official Timeline:
Official Timeline wrote:Prehistory[edit]
Elves and Dwarves inhabit the Great Continent.
Humans inhabit the distant West.
Haldric's people colonise the Green Isle from a continent further to the west.
200 BW[edit]
The Lich-Lords arrive on the Green Isle after losing a war in the distant West.
After a long war Haldric's people come to dominate the Green Isle.
The 'Wesfolk' and their Lich-Lords are pushed onto marginal lands. (emphasis added)
Why couldn't this "long war" have involved the Aragwaith? In addition, the official timeline confirms that Haldric's people are from the distant West (Argea), so why couldn't there have been Green Isle natives (Aragwaith)?
The idea that the Aragwaith rose back to prominence after the fall is also supported by The Post-Fall Timeline based upon most post-Fall UMC campaigns.
Yomar wrote:...
This is precisely the problem with the Khalifate--it is too realistic that the islamic term "Khalifate" evokes images of current issues in the middle east as well as any responsibility (real or perceived) that isalm may have in those struggles. Because the khalifate are so realistic, people take issue with the name. I would hazard a guess that 90% of objections to the Khalifate are due to this high level or realism (and the other 10% are due to issues like the Hakim unit description listing "faith" as one of the primary motives for the unit's service). If the Khalifate focused on flying-carpet, camels, genies, etc. I guarantee everyone would have welcomed the Khalifate with open arms. Will this change? I doubt it--too much work has gone into the current Khalifate for the developers to just change it, but maybe eventually some of the units could be changed (i.e. change the Rami-line to carpet riders and the Khaiyal-line to camels, perhaps change the Hakim to a bottle-genie and the Tabib to a lamp-genie?) ... I strongly agree with your basic argument: a more fantasy-based eastern faction would have been greatly preferred to the realism-based Khalifate...
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Re: [mainline] Replace Khalifate with Aragwaith

Post by bumbadadabum »

I am really a supporter of making their origin unknown. Not only does this add some mystery to the faction, it also gives the opportunity to explain this in UMC campaigns.

Much more important is figuring out what their place would be in mainline gameplay-wise, and how they would improve the multiplayer experience. My main concern with their inclusion is that I fear they'll just be "another human faction" since we already have the Loyalists.

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Re: [mainline] Replace Khalifate with Aragwaith

Post by taptap »

About khalifate opinions: What you are proposing is akin to diagnosing the loyalists as too much inspired by christian catholic medieval times and propose to add saints, angels, the inquisition and for good measure the devil (aka the best known jinni) to remedy the fact. You could easily build one or more jinn faction based on actual islamic theology, yet you fancy them a tool to reduce islaminess of the faction. It doesn't get more uninformed.
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Re: [mainline] Replace Khalifate with Aragwaith

Post by Velensk »

Much more important is figuring out what their place would be in mainline gameplay-wise, and how they would improve the multiplayer experience. My main concern with their inclusion is that I fear they'll just be "another human faction" since we already have the Loyalists.
I honestly cannot comprehend this as a concern for the Khalifate. They play a completely different style of game than the loyalists. The Khalifate rely on a core of mobile terrain dependent units that are decent both at melee and range. This unit is liminal and thus works on a different ToD dynamic than any faction currently playing and that's not just a gimmick, it's a definitive style. The rest of the faction supports the Jundi in various ways, some unique to the faction (including a recruitable +8 healer and a melee marksman for fort busting).
This is precisely the problem with the Khalifate--it is too realistic that the islamic term "Khalifate" evokes images of current issues in the middle east as well as any responsibility (real or perceived) that isalm may have in those struggles. Because the khalifate are so realistic, people take issue with the name. I would hazard a guess that 90% of objections to the Khalifate are due to this high level or realism (and the other 10% are due to issues like the Hakim unit description listing "faith" as one of the primary motives for the unit's service). If the Khalifate focused on flying-carpet, camels, genies, etc. I guarantee everyone would have welcomed the Khalifate with open arms. Will this change? I doubt it--too much work has gone into the current Khalifate for the developers to just change it, but maybe eventually some of the units could be changed (i.e. change the Rami-line to carpet riders and the Khaiyal-line to camels, perhaps change the Hakim to a bottle-genie and the Tabib to a lamp-genie?) ... I strongly agree with your basic argument: a more fantasy-based eastern faction would have been greatly preferred to the realism-based Khalifate...
I cannot comprehend these concerns either. What does it matter if they're realistic or inspired by real cultures? So is just about everything else you'll find. Reality is the best source of inspiration. If you or anyone else cannot handle that it is fictional just because it is based on reality then that's your own problem. The Khalifate (or whatever we choose to call it) doesn't need magic any more than the knalgans do.

If you feel that specifically it's because it's based on the middle east, all I can say is that anywhere and everywhere has its own problems and glories and it's not worth getting tied up over. Unless you have the odd belief that there will or should be an unending unease about this culture (and incidentally, unease about a specific other culture is frequently a result of your own culture) then it's best to not make a fuss about it (one way or the other). There's nothing special about any problem related to misuse of a culture (or even a fictional analogy to a culture); just like anything else, you hold the person responsible for the misuse accountable, you take any actions necessary to restore order for the system as a whole, and then you move on. People can be offended by anything (there was a person who came to the forum to seriously request that the Undead be removed and replaced with 'Rockmen') and it's not worth losing good things (like the Khalifate can be) simply because people have this capability.

As for the Aragwaith: I think simply that it's not worth losing all the effort that's gone into getting the Khalifate ready just to replace them with another faction that'll need all of the same levels of preparation. I guarantee that the balance of the Aragwraith isn't up to mainline standard. Some people might prefer one, some people might prefer the other but we already have the Khalifate and they're progressing slowly enough as it is. Trust me as one who has a lot of experience testing factions and trying to get people to balance test anything: It won't go faster just because it's the Aragwaith and not the Khalifate.
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Re: [mainline] Replace Khalifate with Aragwaith

Post by ChaosRider »

Khalifate, Aragwaith? Why them? Devlings its what you all need! Devlings should be a new mainline faction. No more factions with human, you have them in Loyalists, Undeads, Knalgans, Rebels (4 of 6 factions have already humans?!).
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