[mainline] Add Aragwaith to mainline

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Xara
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Re: [mainline] Replace Khalifate with Aragwaith

Post by Xara » April 29th, 2015, 4:42 am

beetlenaut wrote:
iceiceice wrote:Some would say that Knalgan vs. Undead is still the most problematic default era matchup right now, despite all that....It's really a lot of work to balance things for mp.
Would there be anything wrong with changing the factions slightly in different matchups? For example, make the Dwarvish fighter cost one more gold only when playing against the undead? It would make it much easier to add and balance new factions. With the current system, it sounds like the problem is getting a little bit intractable because of the amount of playtesting required for every little change. Six factions was bad enough, but seven is much worse, and no one wants to face eight or nine.
Another problem is that the tweaks can reveal the factions.
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Re: [mainline] Replace Khalifate with Aragwaith

Post by Eagle_11 » April 29th, 2015, 5:14 am

Why dont we seperate bandits and knalgans ? In the meanwhile there is enough unit art and ive seen enough custom units within umcs for the dwarves to become their own faction.
Would there be anything wrong with changing the factions slightly in different matchups? For example, make the Dwarvish fighter cost one more gold only when playing against the undead
And how would that even function within an 2v2 ? If your unit costs increase against certain races would lead to opponent(s) picking the race that would economically cripple you.
No amount of 'being good with' will let you magically conjure more gold out of thin air.

EDIT: also attached the customized version of aragwaith that i am using, for statistical comparison, theyr mostly the same.
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aragwaith.tar
my tweaked unit stats version of the aragwaith.
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Re: [mainline] Replace Khalifate with Aragwaith

Post by Elvish_Hunter » April 29th, 2015, 10:25 am

Implementor37 wrote:@Elvish Hunter Wow...Thanks--I guess I'll stop working on my document now--it mainly focused on balancing so here it is:
Well, it's really easy to miss something when doing a comparison by hand. That's the purpose of automated tools like diff: save time, effort and mistakes ;)
Anyway, I continued my comparison, and noticed that there are two renamed units in the two eras: the Eoc Witch becomes the WoL Adept, while the EoC Wizard becomes the WoL Enchantress. Both units are the same thing (except for the animations code), so I'm not even attaching the diff.
I also compared the movetypes, and noticed that the most important difference between the two Aragwaithi is that the EoC version has a movement cost of 2 in forests, while the WoL version lowers that cost to 1. This will make a huge difference when facing Elves.
That said, I'm attaching a PDF file that shows the differences in detail.
aragwaithi comparison.pdf
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Implementor37 wrote:but i don't think there are any close right now...(closest is probably elementals atm)
Perhaps not as a multiplayer faction, but I don't see any problem with adding them to the core folder. True, their sprites may not be up to our most recent standards, but adding them anyway will mean making new opportunities for new art contributors to shine 8) . By adding them, people will start using them in UMCs (more than what they already do), some artist will notice them and propose replacement sprites, which in turn will result in having the art department active once again ;) And besides, we already have some mainline elemental stuff (the Mudcrawlers, the Fire Guardian and UtBS' Dust Devil), so why don't we complete the family?
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Re: [mainline] Replace Khalifate with Aragwaith

Post by Aldarisvet » April 29th, 2015, 10:50 am

I got some Ideas concerning Khalifate.

Obviously too much work was done to balance new fraction in MP, so we cant abandon it, but we can change background of it. As I know it is almost undeveloped.

I would suggest separating this race from associations with Islam. And abandon arabian names of unit. And rename fraction name. Yes, many people suggested these things. I myself ok with word 'Khalifate' and have nothing against Islam. Still, if really many people suggested same things, may be you should hear them. But I also have an idea under these suggestions. Why not transform this fraction from 'arabian-like' to just more broad 'eastern-like'. I would say if you will remove/remake Naffat-Tennen line (which sprites for me look like 'terrorists' and I am absolutely serious about it), almost nothing will say that this fraction is about something arabian. You know, there are many other nations in the east than arabs. For example, Genghis Khan's "mongol" state was of course not arabian state and even was no initially islamic (for more then 80 years).
And moreover, some units from Khalifate really reminds me ancient Russian warriors. Jundi, for example. Just look at it, its a Russians 'streltsi'. Oh, not only arabians had a beards.
strel.png
strel.png (119.3 KiB) Viewed 2719 times
More here - https://yandex.ru/images/search?text=%D ... x3_640x960

One could say I want to 'rusificate' the fraction. But really, we have lot of players from Russia, more from other eastern countries and I doubt that many from arabian countries. So why be so obssessed with arabian background of this fraction, especially if this really frustrate many people?

______________

And about name of fraction - just rename 'khalifate' to 'khanate', what a big difference.
Last edited by Aldarisvet on April 29th, 2015, 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [mainline] Replace Khalifate with Aragwaith

Post by Velensk » April 29th, 2015, 11:21 am

I think you've missed that the faction was already very clearly based on a much wider base of cultures than the Persia/Arabia part of the middle east.

But even were it not so: Why are you making it into a problem? It does not have to be.
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Re: [mainline] Replace Khalifate with Aragwaith

Post by Aldarisvet » April 29th, 2015, 11:28 am

Velensk wrote:I think you've missed that the faction was already very clearly based on a much wider base of cultures than the Persia/Arabia part of the middle east.
But you have arabian name of fraction (which creates bad associations), arabian name of units (which creates great problem with understanding), and some units looks especially arabian.

So for me this is pure arabian/islamic fraction.
Velensk wrote: But even were it not so: Why are you making it into a problem? It does not have to be.
You can paint swastika on the wall and ask, whats the problem, it not about Hitler, its about bhuddism. Or also it is an ancient Russian simbol.
We all know, inside, whats the problem. There is no really 'khanate' in our time that is a threat. But 'khalifate', broad 'khalifate', not actually IGIL, is a threat.
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Re: [mainline] Replace Khalifate with Aragwaith

Post by Velensk » April 29th, 2015, 11:51 am

Really? I feel remarkably unthreatened.

I suggest very strongly, that more than whatever your current associations, that you do not consider an entire series of cultures and the collective histories of their peoples to be a threat. Your world and mine both owe many good things to the people who lived in these lands. Fearing and/or hating them because of current upheaval does nothing good.

Now neither does ignoring that the problems are real problems but it is important that we understand that we don't need them here in this game. Nor does the inclusion of this faction need to bring them in.
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Re: [mainline] Replace Khalifate with Aragwaith

Post by Aldarisvet » April 29th, 2015, 12:39 pm

Code: Select all

I suggest very strongly, that more than whatever your current associations, that you do not consider an entire series of cultures and the collective histories of their peoples to be a threat. Your world and mine both owe many good things to the people who lived in these lands. Fearing and/or hating them because of current upheaval does nothing good.
I can fully understand you position, believe me, and still for me the world is more complex.
What I mean? Let me show you an example.
There is obvious sexism in THIS game from some point of view, cause all sprites of females have long hair and also there is no female variants of some warriors, also most heroes are males, not females. And I really wonder how much we all owe to our mothers. Why not anyone scream about it, this is most unfair.There is 'sexual conservatism' in THIS game, cause Konrad fell in love with Lisar, and not with some other boy. And we owe to gay Peter Tchaikovsky some for his music, as for many other gays. So our game discriminates someone. You cannot comply to everyone.

So if developers will continue current line with khalifate, well, you will continue to get problems with this. I am sorry about this. Sorry if I wrote something not appropriate.
Last edited by Aldarisvet on April 29th, 2015, 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [mainline] Replace Khalifate with Aragwaith

Post by bumbadadabum » April 29th, 2015, 12:46 pm

Elvish_Hunter wrote: and noticed that the most important difference between the two Aragwaithi is that the EoC version has a movement cost of 2 in forests, while the WoL version lowers that cost to 1. This will make a huge difference when facing Elves.
It was actually 1MP in the standalone version IIRC. I did change it because it made elves completely useless against them, since their damage isn't too scary, and they don't even have the mobility advantage in forests.

Also, if you're in favor of adding factions to core but not per se MP, why don't we do this with the Aragwaithi first, and think about MP as a secondary thing?

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Re: [mainline] Replace Khalifate with Aragwaith

Post by Velensk » April 29th, 2015, 12:54 pm

You believe that in wesnoth that most units should have female variants to avoid being sexist?

Name one culture fielding large standing armies in the world where there have been even close to as many women included as men in heavy combat roles? The only place I've known for this to be implemented on a large scale were in certain African cultures but in general these regiments were of women too young to be mothers and even then, they were still far less numerous than the men. EDIT: Also, they tended to be archers.

I think in general, women have the kind of sense that leads one to avoid being in combat. You may consider me sexist for saying this (and I will maintain that the differences between men and women are more than just cosmetic) but it would be incredibly unrealistic, especially for human cultures if there were female sprites for most of the warriors as a standard recruit.
So if developers will continue current line, well, you will continue to get problems with this. I am sorry about this. Sorry if I wrote something not appropriate.
What I believe you mean is that other people will have problems and the developers (and I suppose myself) will have to tolerate them.

There's a lot of collective experience in that here. That said, they don't have to be nice so don't keep pressing them.
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Re: [mainline] Replace Khalifate with Aragwaith

Post by tekelili » April 29th, 2015, 1:25 pm

Velensk wrote:I think in general, women have the kind of sense that leads one to avoid being in combat.
Imho historically women were put aside from combat because they were the most valuable resource to keep a civilization alive. If just few men survive you can quickly rebuild your civilization as long women stayed safe, but if you lost most of your women in battle, then your victory in battle field can become useless in the propose of save your civilization.

Edit: Just think about it from a "rude" gamer perspective: If you have strong combat units, and not so strong combat units but able to "create new units"... wich ones would you lay on battle field and wich ones would you keep safe in base?

Edit2: Btw, if I were a guy that survived horror in Verdun at WW I, I would feel kinda insulted if some part of population, free from conscription, insinuated some kind of intelectual superiority for such privilege :eng:

Edit3: becomed curious about this: If you, Velensk, were president of your country and you decide/were forced to fight a war; if war status leads you to force enlist of some civil population... would you force first men to enlist, or would you force both men and women first?
Last edited by tekelili on April 29th, 2015, 3:53 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: [mainline] Replace Khalifate with Aragwaith

Post by Aldarisvet » April 29th, 2015, 1:39 pm

Velensk wrote: Name one culture fielding large standing armies in the world where there have been even close to as many women included as men in heavy combat roles? The only place I've known for this to be implemented on a large scale were in certain African cultures but in general these regiments were of women too young to be mothers and even then, they were still far less numerous than the men. EDIT: Also, they tended to be archers.
Well, I have forseen this argument. But this IS a fantasy game. With MAGIC etc. So you just should not reason to reality. Females can be as good as males at fight in fantasy games :D
Velensk wrote: What I believe you mean is that other people will have problems and the developers (and I suppose myself) will have to tolerate them.
I do not want to argue for arguing and do not want to frustrate you by making you being tolerate to what I write, and we could go far from original point. So again I am sorry. But I want to write last thing, about a threat.
Well we in Russia have 1.5 child per woman in ordinary famalies and like 5 per woman in islamic famalies.
This situation, not islam, or muslim people, but this situation is a threat (especially if there are such things as IGIL exists which tries to spread). And same situation with demographics is in Europe. And people can feel it. You can tolerate, but you will not get khalifate fraction popular. If you think this worth it for teaching world with you values, well, I wish you success :)

I myself bought a book of arabian tales for my son last week, very good tales, they are popular in Russia.

___________________________________

I was analyzing myself about why I was initially positive for khalifate in Wesnoth but the more I study it, the less I like it. And I can formulate now, why. Imagine that you create in a fantasy game as Wethnoth a medieval Russia fraction with all attributes at Ivan Grozny times. With calling unit by Russian names. For example one unit will be Strelets, other unit will be Boyarin (which is understandable only for Russians). With taking all background from real medieval Russia. Brrrr... This would be rediculous (and not because I do not like ancient Russia). Same if you would try import Japan samurai theme into Wesnoth with retaining all names of units on Japan. Absolutely absurd Idea, but yet it done for arabians. Instead of fantasy context you will get all negative associations about these nations, as from past as well from present.

The thought mechanism of a human brain is build on principle of association. If you have an association vacuum which is not filled with flying carpets, jinnies and camel archers, this vacuum would be filled with ISIL and other negative, thank to western media which really made a lot of efforts to color islam in black. What we know more about arabians/islam except this 2 general things (tales about Alladin and terrorism theme)? Almost nothing.
Last edited by Aldarisvet on April 29th, 2015, 7:02 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: [mainline] Replace Khalifate with Aragwaith

Post by Implementor37 » April 29th, 2015, 2:40 pm

bumbadadabum wrote:
Elvish_Hunter wrote: and noticed that the most important difference between the two Aragwaithi is that the EoC version has a movement cost of 2 in forests, while the WoL version lowers that cost to 1. This will make a huge difference when facing Elves.
It was actually 1MP in the standalone version IIRC. I did change it because it made elves completely useless against them, since their damage isn't too scary, and they don't even have the mobility advantage in forests.

Also, if you're in favor of adding factions to core but not per se MP, why don't we do this with the Aragwaithi first, and think about MP as a secondary thing?
I think that's a great idea. Then we could have an MP "core" era--separate from "default" era--which is under no balance obligations (its whole point would be to provide introductions to non-default core units or provide a unique game). Plus once extra units/factions are available in "core" but not "default" you'd continue to get balancing feedback from those using "core" era which could be helpful if there was ever a move to merge units from "core" to "default". With this setup, nearly any complete (or nearly so) faction animation-wise could be added to the "core" era without breaking current MP balancing. Then there could be no "default+<faction>" there would be "default" and "core" with well-balanced factions moved from "core" to "default" as time goes on.

EDIT: Creating a "core" era could also be useful for campaigns, following this idea.
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Re: [mainline] Add Aragwaith to mainline

Post by shadowm » April 29th, 2015, 10:12 pm

For the 1,000th time, we are not going to remove the Khalifate or change the faction’s theme.

(See also: this post.)

Changed the topic’s subject accordingly. Any further posts questioning the Khalifate’s inclusion or the faction’s theme or debating social issues will be deleted.
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Re: [mainline] Add Aragwaith to mainline

Post by ChaosRider » April 29th, 2015, 10:47 pm

shadowm wrote:For the 1,000th time, we are not going to remove the Khalifate or change the faction’s theme.
Yeah, + from my side why you wont start treat mainline era as any other addon available at wesnoth server, it has own authors who have own ideas and plans how to improve it. You can suggest something but you shouldn't do it 1000 times only cause someone didnt accepted your suggestions at first time.

In my opinion Devlings should be another in adding to mainline :D! With their new higher lvls from MWC, because they have animation (atleast most of them xP)!
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