Another fix to Walking Corpses.

[Circon]

Give them a "second strike" ability. What does it do? Just what it says - anything they attack hits before them.

I'll post more when I have some time.

[cobretti]

Give them a "second strike" ability. What does it do? Just what it says - anything they attack hits before them.

I'll post more when I have some time.

Wasn't there a "rule" in design to not add negative abilities/traits?.

Make them less cheap (9-10 gp, for example), reduce their damage, give them less strikes, decrease movement... There are a lot of posibilities.

And, if there is so much problem with them, make them extra-cheap level 1 units, so they can be massed, but massing them bankrupts you!

[Jetrel]

Wasn't there a "rule" in design to not add negative abilities/traits?.

Sure there was, but rules like this are dumb, and limit us for no good reason. I do agree that there should not be negative traits, but negative abilities are a whole different game. A trait is given randomly - an ability is something you *know* a unit will have when you hire it.

Make them less cheap (9-10 gp, for example), reduce their damage, give them less strikes, decrease movement... There are a lot of posibilities.

And, if there is so much problem with them, make them extra-cheap level 1 units, so they can be massed, but massing them bankrupts you!

These are all fine suggestions, but they have one, teensy little problem. If we follow this - all of our units will be the same. They will all behave the same way.

Frankly, I think this is an awesome suggestion. I love it. These slow, lethargic, zombies are *perfect* for it.

[Caçada Selvagem]

hey give me some credit

[cobretti]

Frankly, I think this is an awesome suggestion. I love it. These slow, lethargic, zombies are *perfect* for it.

Maybe that suggestion fits, but it gets zombies again to where they were in the first time: Underpowered, nearly useless units.

Even level 0 units should be capable of doing more things than just standing in place and act as a wall. Removing their ZoC has already weakened their performance on the battlefield, no need to make them extra-wimpy with this, IMHO. An adjustment in their stats should be enough.

[Darth Fool]

I like EP's suggestion of having units leave a corpse around untill the end of a turn that they are killed in. This would prevent the suicidal zombie attack strategy, while not over-weakening the walking corpses to the point of uselessness...

[Circon]

hey give me some credit

For what??

Removing their ZoC has already weakened their performance on the battlefield, no need to make them extra-wimpy with this, IMHO.

This was also a possible alternative to removing ZoC, which I disliked.

These slow, lethargic, zombies are *perfect* for it.

Exactly what I was thinking. If a zombie attack me, sure, it might hit me, but I'm fairly sure I can kick an arm off first. This way Paladins - fast mounted holy warriors of All That Is Good And Powerful (tm) will not stupidly succumb to a few walking corpses, because they can now strike first, likely killing the unit in one hit.

if there is so much problem with them, make them extra-cheap level 1 units, so they can be massed, but massing them bankrupts you!

And then killing a stupid zombie gives you the same experience as killing a (for example) heavy infantry. No thank you.

[cobretti]

Removing their ZoC has already weakened their performance on the battlefield, no need to make them extra-wimpy with this, IMHO.

This was also a possible alternative to removing ZoC, which I disliked.

I agree here. Although some people dislike other options like fractional upkeep, that ZoC thing is weird and affects one of the carved on stone basics of the game. But, I guess we should better wait and see how it results.

if there is so much problem with them, make them extra-cheap level 1 units, so they can be massed, but massing them bankrupts you!

And then killing a stupid zombie gives you the same experience as killing a (for example) heavy infantry. No thank you.

Killing a dark adept with melee only units gives you the same experience as that heavy infantry, and is less dangerous than the stupid zombie.

I still think fractional upkeep is the best option, IMHO. We have also goblins, bats and farmers, after all. It's not just a zombies' problem.

[Darth Fool]

hey give me some credit

For what??

Removing their ZoC has already weakened their performance on the battlefield, no need to make them extra-wimpy with this, IMHO.

This was also a possible alternative to removing ZoC, which I disliked.

These slow, lethargic, zombies are *perfect* for it.

Exactly what I was thinking. If a zombie attack me, sure, it might hit me, but I'm fairly sure I can kick an arm off first. This way Paladins - fast mounted holy warriors of All That Is Good And Powerful (tm) will not stupidly succumb to a few walking corpses, because they can now strike first, likely killing the unit in one hit.

if there is so much problem with them, make them extra-cheap level 1 units, so they can be massed, but massing them bankrupts you!

And then killing a stupid zombie gives you the same experience as killing a (for example) heavy infantry. No thank you.

The problem is that if you impliment this, then, if you wish to make walking corpses usable at all, you either have to up their hit points/resistances so that they can survive that first hit, or you need to make them so ridiculously cheap that they will be really annoying. And if you need a "realistic" explanation of why they still strike first, consider that you probably have more movement points and probably attacked first anyways killing one while the others then swarmed you. If not, hey, they surprised you 'cause you thought they were so slow, and lo and behold, with the smell of fresh living in the air, they move surprisingly fast...

[Caçada Selvagem]

hey give me some credit

For what??

I came up with this idea on that luck forum, of zombies attacking second, you just came up with the second strike hability
to balance this thing right someone would need to test it in multiplayer games, with only the disable of zone of control, then only with the second strike, then with both, and see what makes a more balanced game

[Darth Fool]

For what??

I came up with this idea on that luck forum, of zombies attacking second, you just came up with the second strike hability to balance this thing right someone would need to test it in multiplayer games, with only the disable of zone of control, then only with the second strike, then with both, and see what makes a more balanced game

If I am not mistaken, similar ideas (perhaps even the same idea) have been expressed in previous threads from months gone by. While it is nice to get credit for one's ideas, until implimented, they are a dime a dozen, if even worth that much. Remember, just becuase this is the first time you thought of something, doesn't mean it hasn't been thought of (or even discussed in depth) before. Now, if you had written a patch for BfW that implimented this, then you might have something to worry about claiming credit for. I am not saying this to discourage throwing ideas out there, but don't be surprised if others are not amazed by its originality and don't feel the need to defend that position.

[Circon]

The problem is that if you impliment this, then, if you wish to make walking corpses usable at all, you either have to up their hit points/resistances so that they can survive that first hit, or you need to make them so ridiculously cheap that they will be really annoying. <snip pointless realism>

Nope. Paladins are the only unit (apart from Holy Water) with a holy melee attack.
Walking Corpse attacks Swordsman, Swordsman hits it for 5-10 damage depending on time of day, or even (gasp!) MISSES, and the Corpse still gets a chance to hit him, while not being the swarm-and-do-full-damage-before-dying unit it was.

I *strongly* favor keeping ZoC.

[Jetrel]

The problem is that if you impliment this, then, if you wish to make walking corpses usable at all, you either have to up their hit points/resistances so that they can survive that first hit, or you need to make them so ridiculously cheap that they will be really annoying. <snip pointless realism>

Nope. Paladins are the only unit (apart from Holy Water) with a holy melee attack.
Walking Corpse attacks Swordsman, Swordsman hits it for 5-10 damage depending on time of day, or even (gasp!) MISSES, and the Corpse still gets a chance to hit him, while not being the swarm-and-do-full-damage-before-dying unit it was.

I *strongly* favor keeping ZoC.

Yes, the concern about it underpowering the WCs is unfounded. Because of their resistances, very few units will be able to kill them in one strike.

The reason we are proposing this is because there are (very few) certain units that should have a chance to kill them before they have a chance to strike.

[Darth Fool]

Nope. Paladins are the only unit (apart from Holy Water) with a holy melee attack.
Walking Corpse attacks Swordsman, Swordsman hits it for 5-10 damage depending on time of day, or even (gasp!) MISSES, and the Corpse still gets a chance to hit him, while not being the swarm-and-do-full-damage-before-dying unit it was.

I *strongly* favor keeping ZoC.

Yes, the concern about it underpowering the WCs is unfounded. Because of their resistances, very few units will be able to kill them in one strike.

The reason we are proposing this is because there are (very few) certain units that should have a chance to kill them before they have a chance to strike.

Well then, if you are playing against undead, you probably want to keep those units away from WCs. If it is only a few units and really critical, I don't understand why those few units shouldn't be given first strike. Ok, so it unbalances that unit against non-walking corpse units, but adding second strike to WC significantly weakens them against all units, not just the few that "need" protection against them. Instead of adding a second strike ability I would prefer something more general, like all higher level units strike first except against units with first strike, but that would require a whole lot of rebalancing and isn't worth it, in my opinion.

[Elvish_Pillager]

Well then, if you are playing against undead, you probably want to keep those units away from WCs. If it is only a few units and really critical, I don't understand why those few units shouldn't be given first strike. Ok, so it unbalances that unit against non-walking corpse units, but adding second strike to WC significantly weakens them against all units, not just the few that "need" protection against them. Instead of adding a second strike ability I would prefer something more general, like all higher level units strike first except against units with first strike, but that would require a whole lot of rebalancing and isn't worth it, in my opinion.

Thing is, the corpse-horde strategy can be replicated in many situations in which this is not the case! It also makes little sense to give all higher level units first strike. Case in point: Troll Whelps vs. my Elvish Champion in forest, in Dwarven Doors. He's so powerful that he kills them, so more fill in behind the dead ones, and eventually he dies. I still thing my corpse-piling idea would solve all these problems pretty well.