[mainline] Red mages naming

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Ranger
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[mainline] Red mages naming

Post by Ranger » July 19th, 2014, 3:00 pm

"Great Mage"? What kind of a name for unit is that? Think about it: Then why dont we call previous level a "Not Quite Great Mage"? :P
It is my belief that 4'th level should be named Archmage, as Arch- is supposted to mean "Supreme", while 3lvl would have to go by a new naming.
Your thoughts?
Calling a spear a spoon and then saying "our spoons are different, WINR," is kind of unsatisfying, isn't it?

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Re: [mainline] Red mages naming

Post by Velensk » July 19th, 2014, 4:13 pm

TBH, I have always felt that the lvl 4 should be arcmage. Not sure what the lvl 3 form should be called.

On the other hand, I don't know how anyone could care enough to worry about it much.
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Re: [mainline] Red mages naming

Post by Lord-Knightmare » July 19th, 2014, 7:12 pm

I remain skeptical on this topic.

A possible new form could like this:
Red Mage -->Inferno Mage --> Supreme Mage

However, I doubt the developers would agree to this since this change would require the adjustment of almost all mainline campaigns (HttT, AToTB, TSG, AOI, EI, THoT, NR) as well as a considerable percentage of all available UMC to feature the unit-line.

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Re: [mainline] Red mages naming

Post by Turuk » July 20th, 2014, 12:50 am

Lord-Knightmare wrote:However, I doubt the developers would agree to this since this change would require the adjustment of almost all mainline campaigns (HttT, AToTB, TSG, AOI, EI, THoT, NR) as well as a considerable percentage of all available UMC to feature the unit-line.
If a proper argument was made for the new naming convention, it would only be a matter of someone taking the time to do so.

As far as UMCs, it would be something that could be announced earlier in 1.13 so that UMC authors have plenty of months (years) to adapt for 1.14.
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Re: [mainline] Red mages naming

Post by StandYourGround » July 20th, 2014, 4:41 am

Before just changing names because we think the top level Mage deserves a cooler name, I think it makes sense to think about it in terms of "lore." What do the different levels of the Mage represent? Level 1 is your Student, or like a Padawan in Star Wars (for those who speak a different Geek dialect). The second level is the Master/Graduate level Mage who might begin taking on apprentices. Level three is where you get "Jedi Council" level, and that's the top for most everyone. Going any higher is extremely rare, and the territory of legend. Is Archmage the best title for someone this awesome? Could be, but it seems reasonable for the level three as well. I suggest either something like Archmage/Legendary Mage for levels 3 and 4 respectively, or maybe something like
Master Mage/Archmage. Then again, it could be nice to change things up from always using a term with "Mage" in it somewhere, and use more fantasical terms like "Arcannister."
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Re: [mainline] Red mages naming

Post by beetlenaut » July 20th, 2014, 5:32 am

I've always thought these two names were backwards too, so I would be in favor of a change. I think "supreme", "arch, and "great" are all a little inappropriate though because the Great Mage is not supreme at anything except throwing fire. For that reason, I would prefer Inferno Mage for level 4. For level 3, Mage of Flame would make it sound similar to the corresponding White Mage. (For that matter, the Silver Mage could be made to match the set better by being called the Mage of Reach or something. That would give all the lines some continuity: a color at level 2, and a specialty at level 3.)
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Re: [mainline] Red mages naming

Post by Dunno » July 20th, 2014, 10:25 am

beetlenaut wrote:Great Mage is not supreme at anything except throwing fire.
This :lol:

I mean, we have a mage who can teleport as well as throw fire. Even necromancers appear to have more skills as they can cast two different spells and raise dead. Also there are white mages, who can heal and cure people. Never thought about it this way before, but it appears that the "Great Mage" has pretty weak magic skills compared to the others...
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Re: [mainline] Red mages naming

Post by Ranger » July 20th, 2014, 12:48 pm

First: thank you for your replies. Its good to see that Wesnoth community is still somewhat alive. :mrgreen:

I see that there are more challeges here than I thought.
If we are to change the name of a unit it's semblance should still comfort it's name.
An Archmage, in most fantasy settings, is supposed to be deeply knowleggeable of magic and sorcery should have next to none other beign that could challenge him in his art.
What we have is a slow and fragile glass cannon that honestly is hard to compare to other 4lvl spellcasters: A Sylph and Ancient Lich.
And while both of them clearly had had more time to perfect their skills it was said somewhere in the forums that humans are more inventive and driven because of their short lives and thus sometimes can be a proper match for them.
I suppose we can accept that this is true also for magic skill and thus, I believe, ArchMage(4th-lvl human-mage line advancement) should have similar power and versatility.

If I have forgot anything important or misunderstood Wesnoth game/world mecchanics I would like you to include that in your replies.
Calling a spear a spoon and then saying "our spoons are different, WINR," is kind of unsatisfying, isn't it?

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Re: [mainline] Red mages naming

Post by Telchin » July 20th, 2014, 3:22 pm

Add me to the list of people who think that "Archmage" sounds like a higher rank than "Great Mage". While the titles mean essentially the same thing, "great" is an everyday word, while "arch-" is a greek prefix, so it sounds more arcane. I'm not sure if I would just swap those names or make up a new one for either level. I don't like the suggestion "Inferno Mage", because "Inferno" means "Hell" and while I'm aware it's meant in the meaning of "he cast hellish flames", I feel it would be too sinister name for a unit that usually appears on the side of the designated good guys.
Speaking of Infernos, for the same reason I don't like the names for Inferno and Armageddon Drake. These are the Drakes that have mastered their inner dragon fire. They should be paragons of their race, so I think they should have more positive sounding names. (If there is such thing as Drake hell, I would expect it to be cold and clammy :) ) I guess you could reason that they're supposed to be names given by their human enemies.

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Re: [mainline] Red mages naming

Post by Ranger » July 20th, 2014, 4:28 pm

I have a name for 3rd lvl RedMage:
Magister

Ma*gis"ter\, n. [L. See Master.] Master; sir; -- a title of the Middle Ages, given to a person in authority, or to one having a license from a university to teach philosophy and the liberal arts.
So maybe it could go like this:
Apprentice mage -> Mage -> Magister ->ArchMage :hmm:
Calling a spear a spoon and then saying "our spoons are different, WINR," is kind of unsatisfying, isn't it?

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Re: [mainline] Red mages naming

Post by Turuk » July 20th, 2014, 6:28 pm

Ranger wrote:Apprentice mage
This seems too generic, I would try Initiate.

Initiate -> Magus -> Magister -> Arch Mage

StandYourGround wrote:Then again, it could be nice to change things up from always using a term with "Mage" in it somewhere, and use more fantasical terms like "Arcannister."
The dwarves beat the humans to it...
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Re: [mainline] Red mages naming

Post by James_The_Invisible » July 20th, 2014, 7:29 pm

Turuk wrote:I would try Initiate.
Initiate is used for (level 1) necromancy practitioners in Dark Hordes and War of Legends (it may be used somewhere else too but I cannot remember it right now). It could cause some confusion, I think.
Turuk wrote:The dwarves beat the humans to it...
We already have (human) Ranger and Elvish Ranger ...

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Re: [mainline] Red mages naming

Post by Ranger » July 20th, 2014, 7:47 pm

Turuk
What about: neophyte; acolyte; savant;? I'm leaning towards acolyte.
Calling a spear a spoon and then saying "our spoons are different, WINR," is kind of unsatisfying, isn't it?

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Re: [mainline] Red mages naming

Post by Paulomat4 » July 20th, 2014, 9:34 pm

Well, I don't think we should change the first two level name. I like to think of the first mage as kind of student who already got his bachelor. He is a mage, but not a pro. So don't call him initiate or apprentice.
Red mage fits together with the white mage and the dark sorcerer. So that shouldn't be changed too.
The third and fourth lvl advancements are the ones who cause confusion, so lets focus on them. I personaly lrefer beetlenauts "mage of flame" and for the fourth level "archmage"
And while both of them clearly had had more time to perfect their skills it was said somewhere in the forums that humans are more inventive and driven because of their short lives and thus sometimes can be a proper match for them. I suppose we can accept that this is true also for magic skill and thus, I believe, ArchMage(4th-lvl human-mage line advancement) should have similar power and versatility.
Let's not go overboard here. A 16x4 fire attack is one of the strongest ingame. So no need to be changed
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Re: [mainline] Red mages naming

Post by Xalzar » July 20th, 2014, 9:46 pm

Ranger wrote:Apprentice mage
Turuk wrote:... I would try Initiate.
Ranger wrote:neophyte; acolyte; savant
When did we shift the topic from the 3rd and 4th leves of the Mage line?

Slightly ninja'd by Paulomat4, I agree with him: I honestly prefer leaving the first two levels their current denomination.
So:

Mage -> Red Mage (this in particular, don't change: it's a nice parallel with the White Mage and is so characteristic of the game...) -> ...
Ranger wrote:Magister:
This, for the level 3, and promote "Archmage" to the 4th.

... -> Magister -> Archmage

Good name magister, it has "magi" in it and it has the right meaning I think. Mages who got so expert in their discipline and who now are teachers at a Magic Academy on Alduin or somewhere else. :eng:

Otoh, I shiver thinking of the magnificent term "Magister" translated in the various languages. Who knows what crazyness could come out :doh: (I have hope on translators, do a good job!). ;)

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