[mainline] Outlaws 3lvl update

[Ranger]

I dont see any problems with that. We agreed that he's not brute force grunt, so to compensate for this he can give him as many abilities as he would need to be useful somehow, without being OP.

Perhaps, though he's on his way to becoming untouchable and hard to pin down.

Nightstalk does seem like it would fit thematically, but the larger concern with giving the assassin nightstalk or concealment is it would have quite a few abilities, even considering it is a level 3.

Damn! I dont know why I was thinking that unit Assasin already have "nightstalk" ability, like Shadow. DERP.
I dont think I understand what use he is supposed to have if he cant even approach the target he is supposed to kill? Unless there is a fog of war and no scouts around.
Still, since this unit is at an end of an inherently fragile and use specific unit line (thief->Rogue->Ass.) and herebuy not leveled often, I would say he could have nightstalk+concealment in exchange for skirmisher if Gods(devs) will show good will.
Ahhhh... but this would violate RIPLIB. Maybe this would require creating a different fork in the Thief leveling tree. Maybe if we call current "Assasin" something like Commando it would allow us to split the tree in two paths after lvl2 and make a unit wholly dedicated to a single pupose called "Assasin".
EDIT:
Interesting, since Commando is defined as:

a soldier trained to attack in areas controlled by an enemy

src: http://www.macmillandictionary.com/thes ... h/commando

I would say this is kind of activity a unit with skirmisher would do.

[Dixie]

Well let's not go crazy with the unit's name either. I mean that even he's called an "assassin" does not necessarily mean it's an untouchable killing machine. And a "commando" would fit poorly in a thief-rogue unit line, thematically. I'm not against giving that unit form of stealth, but I wouldn't overdo it and would definitely let it keep its skimisher ability. Also, we have to keep in mind that this unit is built around the backstab ability. That is its former and central purpose. Everything else is icing on the cake. And there are a truckload of possible abilities that could fit an assassin-type unit, we just have to carefully select how we want this particular kind to be...

[Turuk]

I dont think I understand what use he is supposed to have if he cant even approach the target he is supposed to kill? Unless there is a fog of war and no scouts around.

WINR.

Still, since this unit is at an end of an inherently fragile and use specific unit line (thief->Rogue->Ass.) and herebuy not leveled often, I would say he could have nightstalk+concealment in exchange for skirmisher if Gods(devs) will show good will.

What is this good will of which you speak?

Ahhhh... but this would violate RIPLIB. Maybe this would require creating a different fork in the Thief leveling tree. Maybe if we call current "Assasin" something like Commando it would allow us to split the tree in two paths after lvl2 and make a unit wholly dedicated to a single pupose called "Assasin".

I don't know that another unit would necessarily help in this instance. I think it has to do more with Dixie's point:

Also, we have to keep in mind that this unit is built around the backstab ability. That is its former and central purpose. Everything else is icing on the cake. And there are a truckload of possible abilities that could fit an assassin-type unit, we just have to carefully select how we want this particular kind to be...

The unit is formed around the backstab ability, and from Rogue -> Assassin, it gains poison on the ranged attack which is in keeping with its unit type. As Dixie noted, an assassin could use many of the available abilities effectively, it's just more on how that assassin is viewed. Is it the type that moves around, slipping through enemy lines to stab an enemy in the back or poison a leader? Or is it the type that moves unseen, lying in wait to spring an ambush? While it could certainly be both, that sort of straddling would make it end up with quite a few abilities.

[Xalzar]

If I may intervene on the topic, I say "concealment" is the best solution if we want to add to the Assassin a stealthish ability without making it overpowered. It even fits thematically with the Fugitive, which also is an "outlaw" unit which earns that ability only at level 3.

Concealment itself is by now an unique ability, I can see it extended to the Assassin. It makes sense because an Assassin can easily hide in a city or a village (if he is really a skilled professional), and strike from the shadow of the buildings. It makes sense because he can hide whether on day or night in a city, but only in a terrain which he really knows, the city. Not the forest (he's not an elf, and even not every elf is able to ambush), not the eventual enemy castle, even at night (it is guarded by figurative sentinels).

In terms of gameplay, the ability to hide is limited to the only villages, so i think it does not make Assassins overpowered, while it can still grant some "surprises" for the enemy.

Nightstalk is better reserved to creatures of actual shadow that really disappear during night (I speak of core units only, obviously).
Ambush is only for tree-like beings and not even for every elf despite their experience of the habitat, if there is one human which could compete for this ability it is the Ranger, I say (not that I am proposing anything right now, but it can be discussed eventually).

Finally, I really doubt we need to discuss new abilities which only one unit will use and which are probably non-KISS.

[Ranger]

Ok, Turuk and Dixie made my mind. Maybe i went a little overboard with my suggestions. I'll try be more conservative next time.

Xalzar
I'm as much agree with your view as I disagree with some points. Yes giving the assasin concealment ability would not make him OP.
Yes he could easely hide is the village, but that can do any "Fugitive" too. I suspect he just blends with crowds to stay hidden. An Assasin would probably do better.
I would like him to have a unique skill that no one else have. Maybe the concealment on village AND castle tiles would be a bad suprise for the enemy who wanted to his leader at a castle closer to the enemy?
I dont believe that between Ranger and Huntsman it is the former one that should get "ambush". How often do you think that Ranger is hiding somewhere to kill someone?
Not as rarely as one might think, but still he is not nearly as crafty at this as Huntsman. If any other unit would have this ability its him.

[Turuk]

Ok, Turuk and Dixie made my mind. Maybe i went a little overboard with my suggestions. I'll try be more conservative next time.

It's still always good to have ideas to toss around though, and see what fruit they bear.

I would like him to have a unique skill that no one else have. Maybe the concealment on village AND castle tiles would be a bad suprise for the enemy who wanted to his leader at a castle closer to the enemy?

Given that in a normal MP game you are not likely to get an Assassin, most of my responses/reasoning is based on SP. In the current campaigns, AIs rarely leave their keeps and so, while it would thematically fit, the Assassin would always be exposed as they moved on to the castle as few castles have more than a tile separation from the leader.

I dont believe that between Ranger and Huntsman it is the former one that should get "ambush". How often do you think that Ranger is hiding somewhere to kill someone?

This actually does make sense to me. In looking at the descriptions, Huntsman tend to serve as guides for both sides of the law, working with other groups to track down others or lead them to something. Rangers are depicted as more solitary, shunning the company of others and therefore, in my mind, most likely to be waiting in ambush to see if someone is going to prove to be friend or foe.