[mainline] Outlaws 3lvl update

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Ranger
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[mainline] Outlaws 3lvl update

Post by Ranger »

Imho the current Assasin is not worth the bother to level up since its nigh impossible to sneak him to the enemy leader without being detected and he is killed quite fast on the forntline. I think he should be made more usefull: Since Fugitive has the concealment ability why would assasin not have it? In this way he could hop from village to village at night without beign detected. :geek:
Also, seeing the description of Huntsman unit one would think that, spiritually, this unit is perfect for having Ambush ability. Why should it be unique to elves? It shouldnt! :geek:
Calling a spear a spoon and then saying "our spoons are different, WINR," is kind of unsatisfying, isn't it?
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Turuk
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Re: [mainline] Outlaws 3lvl update

Post by Turuk »

Ranger wrote:... and he is killed quite fast on the forntline. I think he should be made more usefull...
Well, using an assassin on the frontline is never going to be a valid use.

Your other suggestions are currently under consideration.


EDIT:
After a conversation with individuals who handle unit balance, the best response at this point is not yet. They are currently in the process of larger balance considerations regarding 1v1 and the Khalifate, and while a change to level 3s will not affect balance persay, they would like the overall balance worked through properly before tweakin level 3s.

So feel free to PM me or follow up on this, it is certainly not a no.
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Ranger
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Re: [mainline] Outlaws 3lvl update

Post by Ranger »

Ok. I wasnt actually expecting this to made into the next patch right away. ;) I just wanted to hear community's opinion.
And if think of something else, maybe I'll post it here.
Calling a spear a spoon and then saying "our spoons are different, WINR," is kind of unsatisfying, isn't it?
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Re: [mainline] Outlaws 3lvl update

Post by James_The_Invisible »

Ranger wrote:... Ambush ability. Why should it be unique to elves? It shouldnt! :geek:
Hmm, did you take this into account:
Elvish Ranger description wrote:Though a man might spend years in the forest, he will never shake the feeling that he is a guest in a realm of which he is not truly a part. With elves, this is quite reversed. Any elf that studies the lore of the woods rapidly becomes a master of them. ...
? Yes, this does not completly forbid other races from learning this ability but I think that it might take too much time for them at least.
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Re: [mainline] Outlaws 3lvl update

Post by Dixie »

Not a big fan of ambush for assassins either. Since when are assassins familiar with the woods, anyway? I'm not saying no human should ever have it; the odd human hero could indeed parallel the elves' mastery of the woods, but all assassins? Not really...

Concealment could be an option, though. Or maybe nightstalk or the equivalent for castles and keeps. It could make sense, fit the unit's theme and function...
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Re: [mainline] Outlaws 3lvl update

Post by Turuk »

Dixie wrote:Not a big fan of ambush for assassins either. Since when are assassins familiar with the woods, anyway? I'm not saying no human should ever have it; the odd human hero could indeed parallel the elves' mastery of the woods, but all assassins? Not really...

Concealment could be an option, though. Or maybe nightstalk or the equivalent for castles and keeps. It could make sense, fit the unit's theme and function...
Nightstalk does seem like it would fit thematically, but the larger concern with giving the assassin nightstalk or concealment is it would have quite a few abilities, even considering it is a level 3.
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Re: [mainline] Outlaws 3lvl update

Post by Ranger »

James_The_Invisible wrote:
Ranger wrote:... Ambush ability. Why should it be unique to elves? It shouldnt! :geek:
Hmm, did you take this into account:
Elvish Ranger description wrote:Though a man might spend years in the forest, he will never shake the feeling that he is a guest in a realm of which he is not truly a part. With elves, this is quite reversed. Any elf that studies the lore of the woods rapidly becomes a master of them. ...
? Yes, this does not completly forbid other races from learning this ability but I think that it might take too much time for them at least.
I'm pretty sure that from the PoW of some common grunt being ambushed by a human Trapper is not much different that beign ambushed by Elvish Ranger. Between those two, well, lets put thir abilities in a tie for gameplay KISS purposes.
Dixie wrote:Not a big fan of ambush for assassins either. Since when are assassins familiar with the woods, anyway? I'm not saying no human should ever have it; the odd human hero could indeed parallel the elves' mastery of the woods, but all assassins? Not really...
Concealment could be an option, though. Or maybe nightstalk or the equivalent for castles and keeps. It could make sense, fit the unit's theme and function...
Where did I say that Assasin should have Ambush ability? ;)
Turuk wrote: Nightstalk does seem like it would fit thematically, but the larger concern with giving the assassin nightstalk or concealment is it would have quite a few abilities, even considering it is a level 3.
I dont see any problems with that. We agreed that he's not brute force grunt, so to compensate for this he can give him as many abilities as he would need to be useful somehow, without being OP.
Calling a spear a spoon and then saying "our spoons are different, WINR," is kind of unsatisfying, isn't it?
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Re: [mainline] Outlaws 3lvl update

Post by Turuk »

Ranger wrote:I dont see any problems with that. We agreed that he's not brute force grunt, so to compensate for this he can give him as many abilities as he would need to be useful somehow, without being OP.
Perhaps, though he's on his way to becoming untouchable and hard to pin down.
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Re: [mainline] Outlaws 3lvl update

Post by StandYourGround »

How about to fit the theme without being too overpowered... The Assassin could have the ability to turn invisible any time it waits at least one turn without moving, and only as long as it remains still and is not discovered. That would be appropriate to the theme (lying in wait for his target), without making the assassin too powerful.

Edit: There could also be restrictions on what terrain this can work on... doesn't make sense to be able to hide in an open field, but forests, villages, swamps, castles, etc...
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Re: [mainline] Outlaws 3lvl update

Post by Turuk »

StandYourGround wrote:How about to fit the theme without being too overpowered... The Assassin could have the ability to turn invisible any time it waits at least one turn without moving, and only as long as it remains still and is not discovered. That would be appropriate to the theme (lying in wait for his target), without making the assassin too powerful.

Edit: There could also be restrictions on what terrain this can work on... doesn't make sense to be able to hide in an open field, but forests, villages, swamps, castles, etc...
:hmm:

My thought on an ability like that would be whether there would be a real use for it. How often would you have an assassin placed somewhere that they sat and waited for an approaching enemy? By nature, many of the campaign scenarios are offensively based and less about holding a defensive position where that sort of ability would be key. It would certainly be useful in MP, but lvl 3s are an exception in a normal multiplayer game (and I can't see someone dumping that much experience into a thief, or even a rogue).

It might be better with some sort of combination of ambush/nightstalk, allowing for more terrains to hide in but still filtering for TOD.
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Re: [mainline] Outlaws 3lvl update

Post by StandYourGround »

You want uses for an ability like I suggested? Team up your assassin with a scout, and you can get him as deep into enemy territory as possible without being detected. To make it more interesting, Assassins could have no zones of control while hiding, so someone actually has to walk on the exact hex they occupy to discover them.

This kind of ability would be a very specific ability that wouldn't be applicable in every possible situation, but that is the nature of the Assassin anyway.
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Re: [mainline] Outlaws 3lvl update

Post by Dixie »

Or other variants I also already saw include staying hidden as long as the unit has at least 3-5 mps left. So he could sneak by moving slowly, modifying his position slightly in case of need while remaining hidden. If it seems overpowered, maybe make it a night-time exclusive (makes more sense than being terrain dependant imo).
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Re: [mainline] Outlaws 3lvl update

Post by Turuk »

StandYourGround wrote:You want uses for an ability like I suggested? Team up your assassin with a scout, and you can get him as deep into enemy territory as possible without being detected. To make it more interesting, Assassins could have no zones of control while hiding, so someone actually has to walk on the exact hex they occupy to discover them.

This kind of ability would be a very specific ability that wouldn't be applicable in every possible situation, but that is the nature of the Assassin anyway.
You noted the ability would only be active after waiting a turn and only stay active if the assassin did not move, so in the above example, he would not be hidden once he stopped following the scout. The no zone of control aspect could be overkill, if the AI ever knew how to use the ability properly, ha.
Dixie wrote:Or other variants I also already saw include staying hidden as long as the unit has at least 3-5 mps left. So he could sneak by moving slowly, modifying his position slightly in case of need while remaining hidden. If it seems overpowered, maybe make it a night-time exclusive (makes more sense than being terrain dependant imo).
This would work to allow the assassin to use it while movin, say double the terrain movement costs once hidden.
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Re: [mainline] Outlaws 3lvl update

Post by StandYourGround »

In the case of the scout, the obvious strategy would be to use the scout to draw fire so that no one moves close enough to see the assassin before it hides. I'm only suggesting that it should be an actual challenge to do this, which seems to make it interesting. Just offering ideas.
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Re: [mainline] Outlaws 3lvl update

Post by Turuk »

StandYourGround wrote:In the case of the scout, the obvious strategy would be to use the scout to draw fire so that no one moves close enough to see the assassin before it hides. I'm only suggesting that it should be an actual challenge to do this, which seems to make it interesting. Just offering ideas.

Ahh, gotcha. Ideas are welcome, particularly since it is fostering discussion to shake out the idea. I'm all for it taking skill to use as a strategy. It would be a nice break from the one line, hammer through them, save-load approach that some players seem to favor. :augh:
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