[mainline] Li'sar's hitpoints in HttT

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What should the change be for Li'sar?

Steadfast (Ability)
0
No votes
Hit and Run (Ability)
2
9%
Dauntless (Ability - Half damage on attack)
2
9%
Initiative (Ability -Firststrike to neighboring units)
11
48%
Bow (Ranged)
1
4%
Dual Attacks (Melee)
1
4%
Stun (Melee)
2
9%
Marksman (Melee)
4
17%
 
Total votes: 23

monochromatic
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[mainline] Li'sar's hitpoints in HttT

Post by monochromatic »

In the 1.11.5 Changelog, it states:

Code: Select all

* Heir to the Throne:
  * Updated Li'sar's movetype and resistances to match her armor.
While this is a fantastic change (old Li'sar+sceptre+void armor = Godmode), I believe one attribute might have been overlooked: her hitpoints. At level 3, she has only a meager 52 hitpoints! (compare to Konrad's 68, Delfador's 60, Kalenz's 63, Royal Guard's 74, General's 50 [!]). Furthermore, her level 2 incarnation has 48 hitpoints, a rather reasonable amount. I understand skirmisher balances her edge in speed and maneuverability in the place of raw hitpoints, but with Li'sar's new image of a [realistic] commander with real armor (cf. Kitty's amazing portrait series) and not the old ninja-version of her, I'd vote to take skirmisher out as well, as it doesn't fit into her theme anymore, IMO.

Perhaps a slight increase in hitpoints (62 hitpoints?) and the removal of skirmisher would benefit her character? Of course, minor details can be discussed and refined.
(This is me after getting frustrated playing the final scenario of HttT on Hard with Elvish Scouts only+recalls and some random Horseman decides he can one-shot a slightly inebriated Li'sar [annoyed]. The lack of tanks is real.)
Last edited by monochromatic on December 22nd, 2013, 8:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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zookeeper
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Re: [mainline] Li'sar's hit points in HttT

Post by zookeeper »

I think it'd be nice if she'd get another special or ability in return if skirmisher is removed. Previously she was one of the few skirmishers you could have, and now she's not even that quick anymore, so replacing skirmisher with only a HP boost would make her a very generic smallfoot-melee-leadership unit. Arguably you don't really have access to comparable loyalist units in the campaign, but still.

I'm not sure how many KISS ability ideas that'd fit her there are to be found, though.

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Re: [mainline] Li'sar's hit points in HttT

Post by Turuk »

zookeeper wrote:I'm not sure how many KISS ability ideas that'd fit her there are to be found, though.
What about steadfast to make her slightly less squishy while not necessarily overpowering her?
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Re: [mainline] Li'sar's hit points in HttT

Post by doofus-01 »

Turuk wrote:
zookeeper wrote:I'm not sure how many KISS ability ideas that'd fit her there are to be found, though.
What about steadfast to make her slightly less squishy while not necessarily overpowering her?
I searched the mainline units for ABILITY_STEADFAST and only came up with the dwarf guardians and merman hoplite - she doesn't seem to fit with that crowd.

Would just giving her a bow or some other ranged weapon work? That would make her a variation on the Loyalist General, which would be boring I guess, but it wouldn't need to be a crossbow. Could be some jeweled, royal, arcane bow passed down through the family. Or something like that. If anyone would have such a thing, it would be her, right?
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Re: [mainline] Li'sar's hit points in HttT

Post by Turuk »

doofus-01 wrote:I searched the mainline units for ABILITY_STEADFAST and only came up with the dwarf guardians and merman hoplite - she doesn't seem to fit with that crowd.
I did think of that, though I figured that maybe as a character she might be able to break out of that trend or open the door to not limit it to dwarves (I had completely forgotten the merman hoplite as I rarely see it).

The description for steadfast of "This unit's resistances are doubled, up to a maximum of 50%, when defending. Vulnerabilities are not affected" could be explained by her having "learnt swordplay with the greatest generals, and battle tactics with the greatest sages, making her both a great combatant and leader. Now battle-hardened and strong of will…" She could be tenacious in combat at L3, explaining her acquisition of steadfast.
doofus-01 wrote:Would just giving her a bow or some other ranged weapon work? That would make her a variation on the Loyalist General, which would be boring I guess, but it wouldn't need to be a crossbow. Could be some jeweled, royal, arcane bow passed down through the family. Or something like that. If anyone would have such a thing, it would be her, right?
This makes me think of her more as a variation of the Master of Arms than the General, given her current set-up. Perhaps a bow that imbues the user with improved accuracy (Marksman)?
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Re: [mainline] Li'sar's hit points in HttT

Post by Crow_T »

monochromatic wrote:(This is me after getting frustrated playing the final scenario of HttT on Hard with Elvish Scouts only+recalls and some random Horseman decides he can one-shot a slightly inebriated Li'sar [annoyed]. The lack of tanks is real.)
I'm pretty sure most people don't play HttT like this? I feel many people give Li'sar both the armor and sceptre, solving both the HP and ranged attack issues. Seems odd to balance around self-limited play

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Re: [mainline] Li'sar's hit points in HttT

Post by Dixie »

Some certainly already tried in UMC but nonetheless possibly interesting ability ideas:

Going down the leadership lane:
Maybe some variant of leadership that'd boost resistances instead of damage dealt?

Going down the aggressive guerrilla warrior but not a skirmisher lane:
Make her keep movepoints even after an attack, so she could effectively hit and run?

Going down the defensive character lane:
Steadfast is indeed a nice perk to have. Other ideas could inclued: a shield bash that inflicts slow, a defensive shout attack (possibly with firststrike and/or magical?) that would not cause damage but would immediately interrupt an attack if it "hits", some sort of protective paladin-like ability that'd allow her to take the damage for lethal blows to weakened adjacent allied units on defense, as long as it doesn't kill her in doing so (ok, way more complicated).
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Re: [mainline] Li'sar's hit points in HttT

Post by doofus-01 »

Turuk wrote:
doofus-01 wrote:I searched the mainline units for ABILITY_STEADFAST and only came up with the dwarf guardians and merman hoplite - she doesn't seem to fit with that crowd.
I did think of that, though I figured that maybe as a character she might be able to break out of that trend or open the door to not limit it to dwarves (I had completely forgotten the merman hoplite as I rarely see it).

The description for steadfast of "This unit's resistances are doubled, up to a maximum of 50%, when defending. Vulnerabilities are not affected" could be explained by her having "learnt swordplay with the greatest generals, and battle tactics with the greatest sages, making her both a great combatant and leader. Now battle-hardened and strong of will…" She could be tenacious in combat at L3, explaining her acquisition of steadfast.
OK, it's not bad, in my irrelevant opinion. But would it be intuitive to the average player? I'm not so sure.
Turuk wrote:
doofus-01 wrote:Would just giving her a bow or some other ranged weapon work? That would make her a variation on the Loyalist General, which would be boring I guess, but it wouldn't need to be a crossbow. Could be some jeweled, royal, arcane bow passed down through the family. Or something like that. If anyone would have such a thing, it would be her, right?
This makes me think of her more as a variation of the Master of Arms than the General, given her current set-up. Perhaps a bow that imbues the user with improved accuracy (Marksman)?
Sure, there's decent fluff either way. The only problem I see with this path is animation. But if 2-4 frame crap is acceptable, I'm pretty sure the Community could provide. I'll throw my hat into the ring, if it's really needed (not that I'm good at animating - new contributor would be better).
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Re: [mainline] Li'sar's hit points in HttT

Post by fabi »

Dixie wrote:Going down the aggressive guerrilla warrior but not a skirmisher lane:
Make her keep movepoints even after an attack, so she could effectively hit and run?
A unit without skirmisher will loose its hitpoints the moment it steps into zoc.

Thus it can only move after an attack if the attacked unit has no zone of control or there was no move needed to reach the unit.

Only a skirmisher is able to make use of the feature in all cases.

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Re: [mainline] Li'sar's hit points in HttT

Post by beetlenaut »

Steadfast works well enough for me, but here are some other possibilities that I think would fit here character:
Distract? (adjacent enemies lose their ZOC) The only downside is that it is used for a similar unit in a different campaign.
Two attacks per turn? (no movement in between, and it can't be the same unit)
Stun? I'm just fond of that in general.
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Re: [mainline] Li'sar's hitpoints in HttT

Post by monochromatic »

Crow_T wrote:
monochromatic wrote:(This is me after getting frustrated playing the final scenario of HttT on Hard with Elvish Scouts only+recalls and some random Horseman decides he can one-shot a slightly inebriated Li'sar [annoyed]. The lack of tanks is real.)
I'm pretty sure most people don't play HttT like this? I feel many people give Li'sar both the armor and sceptre, solving both the HP and ranged attack issues. Seems odd to balance around self-limited play
Yes, I in fact typically charge through the swamp on normal play-throughs and give Li'sar the armor. With Elvish Scouts only, it's rather difficult (for obvious reasons), so I opted to try the Cliffs of Thoria route. But that's not the issue. The issue is, since her movetype has changed, her reduced defences on most terrains render her very fragile. And in the constant 40% flat terrain in the final scenario of HttT, it is very easy for a quick moving unit to come and one-shot her.
Dixie wrote:Some certainly already tried in UMC but nonetheless possibly interesting ability ideas:

Going down the leadership lane:
Maybe some variant of leadership that'd boost resistances instead of damage dealt?

Going down the aggressive guerrilla warrior but not a skirmisher lane:
Make her keep movepoints even after an attack, so she could effectively hit and run?

Going down the defensive character lane:
Steadfast is indeed a nice perk to have. Other ideas could inclued: a shield bash that inflicts slow, a defensive shout attack (possibly with firststrike and/or magical?) that would not cause damage but would immediately interrupt an attack if it "hits", some sort of protective paladin-like ability that'd allow her to take the damage for lethal blows to weakened adjacent allied units on defense, as long as it doesn't kill her in doing so (ok, way more complicated).
beetlenaut wrote:Steadfast works well enough for me, but here are some other possibilities that I think would fit here character:
Distract? (adjacent enemies lose their ZOC) The only downside is that it is used for a similar unit in a different campaign.
Two attacks per turn? (no movement in between, and it can't be the same unit)
Stun? I'm just fond of that in general.
Personally, I would prefer steadfast and then perhaps only a slight boost to her hitpoints. Distract and Stun would also work well, I think.
Other ideas:
Marksman on her melee attack.
7mp rather than 6mp.

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Re: [mainline] Li'sar's hitpoints in HttT

Post by Turuk »

doofus-01 wrote:OK, it's not bad, in my irrelevant opinion. But would it be intuitive to the average player? I'm not so sure.
No more irrelevant than mine. :P I was just sharing the logic of how I came to offer that up as a possibility, and your input on how intuitive it is certainly helps. I'm a bit biased as to how much sense it makes, as I provided the suggestion.
doofus-01 wrote:Sure, there's decent fluff either way. The only problem I see with this path is animation. But if 2-4 frame crap is acceptable, I'm pretty sure the Community could provide. I'll throw my hat into the ring, if it's really needed (not that I'm good at animating - new contributor would be better).
I don't know that it would take much as long as it was in line with what is currently out there.
fabi wrote:A unit without skirmisher will loose its hitpoints the moment it steps into zoc.

Thus it can only move after an attack if the attacked unit has no zone of control or there was no move needed to reach the unit.

Only a skirmisher is able to make use of the feature in all cases.
There is a hit and run ability utilized in a UMC campaign that could be used so that she could retain the movement even after entering a ZOC.
beetlenaut wrote:Distract? (adjacent enemies lose their ZOC) The only downside is that it is used for a similar unit in a different campaign.
Two attacks per turn? (no movement in between, and it can't be the same unit)
Stun? I'm just fond of that in general.
Distract: Nothing wrong with it being used twice, it's not as if only one unit in the world knows how to distract someone. ;) But I get your point.
Two attacks: That would be interesting, that she's so adept she can attack two units.
Stun: This just knocks a unit out of play for one turn?
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Re: [mainline] Li'sar's hitpoints in HttT

Post by beetlenaut »

Turuk wrote:Stun: This just knocks a unit out of play for one turn?
I was thinking of stun like in UtBS or DW. The attacked unit loses its ZOC for one turn. It's useful, especially in tight quarters, but distract is more powerful.
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Re: [mainline] Li'sar's hitpoints in HttT

Post by Turuk »

beetlenaut wrote:I was thinking of stun like in UtBS or DW. The attacked unit loses its ZOC for one turn. It's useful, especially in tight quarters, but distract is more powerful.
:doh: Of course. That would be a nice touch for her to have, though using it in tight quarters would mean still being careful about when she's used to avoid the OP's concern. Still, we don't want her to be perfect.
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Re: [mainline] Li'sar's hitpoints in HttT

Post by monochromatic »

I'm going to bump this thread. Any other ideas? Is something going to be done?

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