Color change of the movement orb
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Re: Color change of the movement orb
The second line appears to contradict the first, as people are 'hanging on' to the old way instead of converting to the new one. The connotation is that they are resisting something better.fabi wrote:No one who wants the old way back is wrong.Turuk wrote:This is the second time that you have indicated that anyone who wants the old way is wrong, ...
It is only natural for humans to hang on old rules, way of lives, items or habits.
Certainly, but why is it now all automatically default? It is configurable, but it was not made simple to configure the old settings. Numerous people have asked how to change the controls back or to alter the orbs.fabi wrote: This is why I alway try to keep the stuff configurable, so that people can adjust stuff to their needs.
So instead of users testing the new method to gauge its effectiveness, it was implemented with the logic of 'why not do it?' and players have to persuade you in the other direction.fabi wrote: Sure, just prove me wrong.
I can point you to numerous scientific works about how human perception works and how this knowledge is used in UI design.
Be prepared to have a hard time, the papers are not easy to read/understand and I am used to scientific argumentation.
Thank you for indicating that I would struggle to keep up with the scientific arguments behind the changes. Additionally, not all standards are applicable to all designs.
So the change will still be made and the discussion/concerns will be handled after the fact or will you engage the community in their concerns before making any more drastic changes?fabi wrote:Right, my time is limited and I have spend many of it on the forum answering questions lately.You have so far not given any validity to the numerous comments (the latest) made about the various changes you have made,
I will answer to them sooner or later.
I have done no such thing, I was referencing words from your various posts in response to points raised about the intuitiveness and simplicity.fabi wrote:you just note that they don't understand that the new set-up is 'simpler' and 'superior' to the current way.
You make it sound like I have told someone a fool. I did not.
Certainly, so there has to be some sort of decision point reached as to what is default over the other, outside of making it the result of one opinion.fabi wrote:I can't answer this question.At which numerical point does the 'certain amount of people wanting the old way back' become realization that they could represent a majority and not a minority?
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Re: Color change of the movement orb
fabi: first of all thanks for providing a way to revert the color changes.
As a supporter of the old colors I see two reasons why they make more sense (just to me, because of the way I see the game):
1. I automatically associate such orbs with traffic lights. Thus I expect yellow to mean something between green and red, which is not the case with the new colors.
2. Since the game is often more about keeping your own units alive than about killing enemies, already moved units are the ones that need most of your attention. Especially since the orb draws attention not only to the unit but also to the hex it is on. Of course, the hexes with units that can't move anymore are the most important: For enemy units I'm usually more interested in knowing where they can move, and own unmoved units are the degree of freedom to push the balance in my favor. They can be used to attack enemy units (usually the minor purpose) and to protect the already moved units at fixed position from attacks of loose enemy units (major purpose in most cases). Their current position is neglectable.
Of course, villages and terrain play a role as well, but I guess noone's considering giving them orbs
As a supporter of the old colors I see two reasons why they make more sense (just to me, because of the way I see the game):
1. I automatically associate such orbs with traffic lights. Thus I expect yellow to mean something between green and red, which is not the case with the new colors.
2. Since the game is often more about keeping your own units alive than about killing enemies, already moved units are the ones that need most of your attention. Especially since the orb draws attention not only to the unit but also to the hex it is on. Of course, the hexes with units that can't move anymore are the most important: For enemy units I'm usually more interested in knowing where they can move, and own unmoved units are the degree of freedom to push the balance in my favor. They can be used to attack enemy units (usually the minor purpose) and to protect the already moved units at fixed position from attacks of loose enemy units (major purpose in most cases). Their current position is neglectable.
Of course, villages and terrain play a role as well, but I guess noone's considering giving them orbs
Re: Color change of the movement orb
You are welcomeDuthlet wrote:fabi: first of all thanks for providing a way to revert the color changes.
I must admit that I did not do much to make that happen, the game_config.cfg offered adjustable orb colors before.
Still I will work to make the change more easy and live on after the game got an update.
Interesting points.As a supporter of the old colors I see two reasons why they make more sense (just to me, because of the way I see the game):
1. I automatically associate such orbs with traffic lights. Thus I expect yellow to mean something between green and red, which is not the case with the new colors.
2. Since the game is often more about keeping your own units alive than about killing enemies, already moved units are the ones that need most of your attention. Especially since the orb draws attention not only to the unit but also to the hex it is on. Of course, the hexes with units that can't move anymore are the most important: For enemy units I'm usually more interested in knowing where they can move, and own unmoved units are the degree of freedom to push the balance in my favor. They can be used to attack enemy units (usually the minor purpose) and to protect the already moved units at fixed position from attacks of loose enemy units (major purpose in most cases). Their current position is neglectable.
Of course, villages and terrain play a role as well, but I guess noone's considering giving them orbs
While playing I am more concerned about forgetting to move my own units and not spotting enemy ones who might make it through my line.
Thank you for your feedback
Re: Color change of the movement orb
The different orb colors and the new minimap features were developed together with another developer.Turuk wrote:Certainly, so there has to be some sort of decision point reached as to what is default over the other, outside of making it the result of one opinion.
So they are not the result of a single opinion.
Re: Color change of the movement orb
This may sound counter-intuitive, but what about using white to designate enemies on the minimap, and black orbs in the playing field? White will stand out much more against LB's pallette, which is all medium-dark hues.
Re: Color change of the movement orb
Ok, fair enough, so two opinions then. Did you ignore the remainder of concerns/points in my post only to address this one, or will those be addressed at a later date as well?fabi wrote:The different orb colors and the new minimap features were developed together with another developer.Turuk wrote:Certainly, so there has to be some sort of decision point reached as to what is default over the other, outside of making it the result of one opinion.
So they are not the result of a single opinion.
That logic is what I meant before:
Turuk wrote:So the change will still be made and the discussion/concerns will be handled after the fact or will you engage the community in their concerns before making any more drastic changes?
Hmm, how will the player know the black and white are tied together?Crow_T wrote:This may sound counter-intuitive, but what about using white to designate enemies on the minimap, and black orbs in the playing field? White will stand out much more against LB's pallette, which is all medium-dark hues.
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Re: Color change of the movement orb
By playing for 2 minutes The new minimap colors are not literal translations of environment colors, for something on a small scale readability is most important. Just a thought.Turuk wrote:Hmm, how will the player know the black and white are tied together?
Re: Color change of the movement orb
Blasphemy! That's a good point though, the terrain colors do not seem intuitive at all, it's learned.Crow_T wrote:By playing for 2 minutes The new minimap colors are not literal translations of environment colors, for something on a small scale readability is most important. Just a thought.Turuk wrote:Hmm, how will the player know the black and white are tied together?
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Re: Color change of the movement orb
To be clear, I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I want to comment regarding the science of UI design:fabi wrote: Regardless of any new features, using red to mark moved units (which don't need much attention any more) is a fault.
This is not based on my subjective feeling or opinion,
it is a scientific fact.
Just show Wesnoth 1.10 to anyone who learned how to design UIs properly.
I have done so.
There is the possibility to study "Medieninformatik" at my university.
That is a mixture between computer science and designing.
They learn how to make Websites and design GUIs and other stuff properly.
...
The friend I have asked to have a look at our UI told me:
"Nice game but the UI is designed fundamentally wrong."
...
At the end most human brains work the same and you can't change that no matter how many people participate in a poll or just state their current dislike.
...
No software project with a sane leadership will disregard design principles which have proven to be sane,
neither should we.
There is no denying that there are good universal principles of UI design, and that these can find basis in very simple neuroscience / behavioral science.
But I think you, fabi, take it too far if you say that these rules are set in stone and that to suggest ever to deviate from them is to be in denial of science. Determining how people will react in some setting is always extremely complex -- it is totally implausible that there could be any broad and unfailing rule for any question like this. There can only be guidelines, and every such rule will have exceptions. To suggest otherwise is like suggesting that if a writer ever takes liberties with a rule from "Strunk & White: The Elements of Style" it means they are a bad writer, or conversely that any document which follows those rules to the letter is an example of good writing.
The science is only good if it successfully predicts which design people will be more comfortable with. If experiments with actual people conflict with some part of some theory, that means the theory has a problem, not the people, assuming that the experiment is fair and the people are open minded. No sane software project leadership would disregard the feedback of its actual users in favor of the opinions of someone writing a textbook about what the users are likely to think.
As an additional point consider that design principles change according to the target audience. Even if the wesnoth UI would not win the Steve Jobs seal of approval to be packaged with every iPhone, it could still be possible that it is designed very well for the needs of the typical wesnoth user. Similarly the typical dev might have significantly different preference from the typical user. In my experience, many software developers prefer to use linux over mac os not just because of functionality, but many actually significantly prefer the window managers and general design of a linux system to that produced by Apple. It's obvious that the rules are different for different groups of people, despite your assertion that most brains work the same... different strokes for different folks.
Last edited by iceiceice on January 8th, 2014, 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Color change of the movement orb
TBH fabi: Considering some of the changes that have apparently been made because of it, I've becoming incredibly underwhelmed by the expertise of whomever claimed Wesnoths UI is fundamentally flawed. Your experience is obviously different but Wesnoths old interface is one of the only things nobody I've ever introduced it to has had problems with (and they've had problems with everything from too few factions, to no actual ranged attacks, to ghosts not being invulnerable, to luck, to the way special abilities works [particularly no active healing abilities]). I don't think that the new one would cause too much of a negative impact (except for a few issues which this thread isn't the place for) but I don't think that it was nice/kind/good to force this through on everyone nor the attitude you've taken toward it.
That said, I don't actually have any problem with it on this issue. I do find the old one more intuitive (traffic light scheme) but I don't have any problem with the new one.
That said, I don't actually have any problem with it on this issue. I do find the old one more intuitive (traffic light scheme) but I don't have any problem with the new one.
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Re: Color change of the movement orb
The works that you have been doing for BfW is recently incredible (well, of course in the past also). I really appreciate this revival.fabi wrote:
Thank you so much.
Many thanks to Turuk, also.
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Re: Color change of the movement orb
Everything's fine as long as you don't make it a top-level preferences tab (but instead put it behind a button or something in the display tab), and retain the old traffic light defaults.
Re: Color change of the movement orb
SkyOne wrote:The works that you have been doing for BfW is recently incredible (well, of course in the past also). I really appreciate this revival.fabi wrote:
Thank you so much.
Many thanks to Turuk, also.
zookeeper wrote:Everything's fine as long as you don't make it a top-level preferences tab (but instead put it behind a button or something in the display tab), and retain the old traffic light defaults.