[mainline] Giving 'loyal' trait to undead

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Eru_Iluvatar
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[mainline] Giving 'loyal' trait to undead

Post by Eru_Iluvatar »

This partly just relates to the base idea behind upkeep and cost. I understand that is a major part of Wesnothian strategy, but I feel like we should look at the logic behind where upkeep and cost come from, particularly with undead. Cost is simple: that is the amount of money required to train and equip this unit. Better trained and equipped units (e.g. higher level units) have higher cost because they cost more to train and equip. Upkeep is the cost of, well, upkeep. It costs money to feed and pay the units. Higher level units are worth more, so they would seek more money, hence a higher upkeep. However, undead are different. Cost is the same. It would still cost money to equip and train the units. Yes, weaker undead have little to no training, but thats why theyre cheap. But undead do not need to eat, and undead do not require payment for their services. It is frequently mentioned that they are completely controlled by their master. So, I think undead should not have an upkeep, or at least should have a lowered upkeep cost (which would come from maintaining and replacing equipment). As for the issue of balance, perhaps cost could be increased for undead to make up for this difference. As for those who say that the term 'loyal' implies, well, loyalty, the trait could be renamed, or perhaps included in the 'undead' trait.
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Re: [mainline] Giving 'loyal' trait to undead

Post by fabi »

Your argumentation makes sense.

I see no reason not to implement it in an addon campaign/era.

However, changing the upkeep for undead units everywhere would cause the need to rebalance everything.
No or reduced upkeep is such a great benefit that we would need to compensate it with drastic changes to the undead faction,
and every other faction as a consequence as well.

Thus, there is no chance that this is going to happen, sorry.
The default era is well balanced since ages (and it took a lot of time).

Your suggestion is simply 9 or even 10 years too late.
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Dugi
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Re: [mainline] Giving 'loyal' trait to undead

Post by Dugi »

How about simply saying that they need the recruitment gold to buy the corpses and then they need to buy some special material whose alpha decay provides energy to the undead to move. Or maybe they need to pay some mercenary spirits to operate these bodies.
I am sure that a decent explanation for this would be found if given enough time.
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Iris
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Re: [mainline] Giving 'loyal' trait to undead

Post by Iris »

The gold is obviously used both to purchase farm produce and craft potion ingredients.

(If this thread turns into speculation about how undead use gold it’ll need to be moved to a different forum section.)

But yeah, gameplay trumps realism in Wesnoth.
Author of the unofficial UtBS sequels Invasion from the Unknown and After the Storm (now available for Wesnoth 1.14.x and 1.15.4+).
aquileia
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Re: [mainline] Giving 'loyal' trait to undead

Post by aquileia »

May I mention that there has already been a discussion about this? I can't find the thread right now, but someone proposed that "gold" doesn't necessarily mean that the undead need money... it can as well represent other resources a necromancer gets from villages, be it skeletons or power needed to control his minions. As Wesnoth follows the KISS principle, the name gold can be interpreted as a unification of these factors to get a meaningful metric.
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Sapient
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Re: [mainline] Giving 'loyal' trait to undead

Post by Sapient »

The skeletons need gold teeth to replace the ones that get knocked out by trolls. :mrgreen:

Seriously though, I doubt that you would be able to implement this change without ruining MP balance. The higher recruitment cost would make them too weak in the start, and the lack of upkeep would make them too strong at the end. So they would probably be underpowered on small maps and overpowered on large maps.
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fabi
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Re: [mainline] Giving 'loyal' trait to undead

Post by fabi »

Sapient wrote:The skeletons need gold teeth to replace the ones that get knocked out by trolls. :mrgreen:
:D
Seriously though, I doubt that you would be able to implement this change without ruining MP balance.
And SP campaign balance as well. Though this might be easier to fix.
The higher recruitment cost would make them too weak in the start, and the lack of upkeep would make them too strong at the end.
So they would probably be underpowered on small maps and overpowered on large maps.
Yes, this way of fixing it won't work.

But I can imagine that they could suffer from natural decay,
meaning some sort of negative regeneration.

They cost no upkeep but don't last for long, the power that keeps them alive is consumed.

Still, I only want to throw in some ideas for a possible addon, not proposing any change to current mainline.
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Re: [mainline] Giving 'loyal' trait to undead

Post by Midnight_Carnival »

The Undead are basically paracitic by nature.
Undead can not "survive" without living humans to serve/summon/feed them.
Who pays for the bone arrows of the skelly archers? they can't shoot thier own bones or they'd get weaker! Who pays for the epoxy resin used to patch the skellies back together when they go into town? Who pays for the rusty armor and weapons (it must be rusty, or it wouldn't be scary) to be kept in that rusty but not falling apart state?

-damn it, I'm being serious here, have you been undead for a while and tried to find work these days?
_oh, sure, there are all those "Undead friendly" charaties, but most of them are run by the White Mages and aimed at converting the thralls and necromancers, rather than helping a bony brother to get his unlife back together and get off the streets, earn some respect and start doing good.
It's because we -erm, they aren't given a chance to be anything other than monsters they always come into your castle like they's on crack!

So don't change the game, change the system!
Keep your upkeep, but we demand equal rights for undead!!!!
Last edited by 8680 on June 20th, 2013, 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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...apparenly we can't go with it or something.
fabi
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Re: [mainline] Giving 'loyal' trait to undead

Post by fabi »

Midnight_Carnival wrote:-damn it, I'm being serious here, have you been undead for a while and tried to find work these days?
:lol2:
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StandYourGround
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Re: [mainline] Giving 'loyal' trait to undead

Post by StandYourGround »

I will now resume lurking silently.
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Lord-Knightmare
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Re: [mainline] Giving 'loyal' trait to undead

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

StandYourGround wrote:Couldn't resist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pa5QcWxfEjk
:lol2: :lol2:

The undead do need upkeep, if one thinks like this:
The necromancer/Death Lord needs to have a sort of magical energy to keep all his unholy creations active. This energy is gained by the necromancer by performing alchemy with gold. So, the game simply puts this complicated process in terms of upkeep.

I don't like to give the loyal trait to undead. Imagine how hard, Dead Water, Northern Rebirth and Eastern Invasion would be if that happens. :shock: Then, there is always UMC. :shock: :shock:
But the campaign where one plays as Grog would be more fun for the troll smash-a-thon :mrgreen:
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